From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: pjb@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Fixing antediluvianisms in Emacs' UI Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:22:52 +0200 Organization: Informatimago Message-ID: <87aapze7r7.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> References: <20100707064305.GF31621@groll.co.za> <20100707080139.GA18906@groll.co.za> <9dc07ed9-f6f1-4ac5-949a-5b97368cc32a@n19g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <87mxu22rbc.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1291845669 17399 80.91.229.12 (8 Dec 2010 22:01:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 22:01:09 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 08 23:01:04 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQS4O-0002L1-Ei for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 23:01:04 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37702 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQS4N-0000PV-MU for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 17:01:03 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs Original-Lines: 73 Original-X-Trace: individual.net xwzBuiRT7eUFFy2yhbcsNQALxc0X3iZvZk+gGdI5JjG8Llavy1 Cancel-Lock: sha1:NTc4Nzc5NmNjZjJlN2UzOTY5MDA0NjU4ZDNjMTAyZDg5NGU5MTMzNw== sha1:hQMYIU3WKgNHN7ud11qGZ3sN33Y= Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAQMAAABtzGvEAAAABlBMVEUAAAD///+l2Z/dAAAA oElEQVR4nK3OsRHCMAwF0O8YQufUNIQRGIAja9CxSA55AxZgFO4coMgYrEDDQZWPIlNAjwq9 033pbOBPtbXuB6PKNBn5gZkhGa86Z4x2wE67O+06WxGD/HCOGR0deY3f9Ijwwt7rNGNf6Oac l/GuZTF1wFGKiYYHKSFAkjIo1b6sCYS1sVmFhhhahKQssRjRT90ITWUk6vvK3RsPGs+M1RuR mV+hO/VvFAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Accept-Language: fr, es, en X-Disabled: X-No-Archive: no User-Agent: Gnus/5.101 (Gnus v5.10.10) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:179678 comp.emacs:100172 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:76096 Archived-At: Ilya Zakharevich writes: > On 2010-07-08, David Kastrup wrote: >> I think the point was that the manual was not deficient concerning the >> information it provides, but in not making Xah Lee want to read it. > >> In a way, it is a losing battle. > > Why consider it in military terms? The question at point is that > Emacs' UI is lacking. So just fix it: make it self-documenting, as > any good-UI program should be... > > Looks like some vestiges of 80s' mentality still remains in Emacs > design: at the time, a common misconception was that problems with UI > may be "fixed" by updating the manuals. Well, even if one still > believes in this way, it is a dead end: Emacs' manual IS quite good > already, so the improvements achieved in this way would have a trace > value only. > > Now, after the flood of "grandmother revolution" [*], we know OTHER > ways. "Self-documenting" means the program guides the user how to use > it. Emacs is now flexible enough so that with most tasks, this may be > easily achieved. > > [*] this is how as one of the designers of Plan9 called the major > event of 90s: achievement of understanding of UI design so good > that UI accessible to "grandmothers" may be created. He > attributes this breakthrough to effort of M$; I tend to agree... I'm not so sure grandmothers can use Microsoft programs so easily. I sure cannot. It seems to me that parangons of software explorability are more in the camp of emacs, lisp and smalltalk. Granted, this is archived so far mostly by giving access to the sources, so not for grandmothers. But then, Smalltalk was designed for grandchildren... >> People expect software to just work without reading manuals. > > That's right. And when we can EASILY cater to their expectations, we should. > > The question at point: ISearch. Lemme sketch one possiblity of adding > self-documentation to ISearch (people with better UI-design experience > must be able to find something yet better): > > a) Change the prompt (configurable; verbose by default; > self-documentation should mention how to disable verbosity): > > Isearch (F1 for help): > > b) bind F1 F1 to "Open manual on basics of Isearch"; > > c) bind F1 to open a shrink-wrapped buffer with "Quick info" on > ISearch. This info should include the `current state' (case > sensitivity etc) - plus information where this state "comes > from": e.g., whether the particular setting is mode-specific. It > should also state how to toggle "I" in ISearch, toggle case-fold, > switch direction, regexpness, by-word, different ways to quit, > etc. > > Should also state how to start Isearch in `a particular state' > (with some toggles pre-loaded). > > Does not look difficult to do, does it? It's a lot of work if you have to do it manually for all the commands. You must find a way to do it automatically. We may require adding declarations to commands, perhaps an improved interactive declaration? -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/