From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ted Zlatanov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: user-controlled load-path extension: load-dir Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 23:01:56 -0600 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Message-ID: <87aah3va9n.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87ei6mz24h.fsf@lifelogs.com> <20110306072147.GA11067@event-horizon.homenet> <871v2i525h.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87oc5lx607.fsf@lifelogs.com> <874o7ds37p.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4D7726E8.5090206@swipnet.se> <4D772988.4070209@gmail.com> <4D775002.8050100@swipnet.se> <874o7cjj8h.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tyfcnon1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871v2gjdhf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <877hc8nk2h.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hbbby82y.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1299733344 22439 80.91.229.12 (10 Mar 2011 05:02:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 05:02:24 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 10 06:02:20 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PxY0w-0002V4-Gg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 06:02:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55222 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PxY0v-00056q-Tp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 00:02:17 -0500 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=48388 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PxY0q-00056h-2x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 00:02:13 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxY0o-0004J0-CV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 00:02:12 -0500 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:44270) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxY0o-0004If-0a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 00:02:10 -0500 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PxY0m-0002St-6b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 06:02:08 +0100 Original-Received: from c-67-186-102-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net ([67.186.102.106]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 06:02:07 +0100 Original-Received: from tzz by c-67-186-102-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnqQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 06:02:07 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 43 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-67-186-102-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110014 (No Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:dmPS1Rx87DUeV5o0yObz2gmRcHw= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:137020 Archived-At: On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:20:53 +0900 "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote: SJT> Ted Zlatanov writes: >> For me those reasons are modularization and easy code deployment on a >> personal level. I think I've been clear on that and wonder how you >> determined your reasons were the good ones. SJT> My definition of "good" is pretty strict here. That is, "the need is SJT> sufficiently great, and the problem sufficiently difficult for users SJT> to solve on their own that it's appropriate to introduce new SJT> problems." There's a lot of "daddy knows best" packed in your definition, isn't there? I find your "users will feel pain and the maintainer will suffer embarassment" emotional arguments unappealing and somewhat patronizing, personally. >> Who said load-dir is supposed to avoid problems? As with the earlier >> comment about broken code, if you screw up your configuration layout in >> any form, you go and fix it. Emacs should indicate where the error >> happened, but beyond that it's a user issue. SJT> But here *Emacs is screwing up the configuration* by automatically SJT> downloading and installing code, at least according to several SJT> advocates' proposals. I have not advocated such a thing and am against it; if I implied otherwise I apologize for the misunderstanding. el-get's *bootstrap* may reside in the load-dir, but all the packages it manages won't. SJT> Again, *this is not theory*. This is based on more than a decade SJT> of experience with such systems in XEmacs. Users do *not* view SJT> this as "oh, I messed up again". They view it as "if Emacs is not SJT> going to do it right, it should tell me to do it myself." I view it as "I enabled the load-dir feature, maybe I should understand it." You keep insisting on holding the user's hand. FWIW XEmacs rewrote and broke my .emacs without prompting last time I had to use it to debug a Gnus problem, so I'm pessimistic about the way it holds the user's hand. Ted