From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eric Schulte Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: CL package serious deficiencies Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 07:23:00 -0700 Message-ID: <87aa4skmm1.fsf@gmx.com> References: <33271707.post@talk.nabble.com> <87fwemcwlx.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> <87zkcubbfc.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> <87vcnibb9t.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> <87r4y6bams.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> <4F3198CE.9000900@dancol.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1328804309 32306 80.91.229.3 (9 Feb 2012 16:18:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 16:18:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: nix@esperi.org.uk, egnartsms@gmail.com, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, Emacs-devel@gnu.org, Tom Tromey , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, dancol@dancol.org, drew.adams@oracle.com To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 09 17:18:23 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RvWhQ-0002mr-8B for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:18:20 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44750 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RvWhP-0001fe-LR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:18:19 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52813) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RvWhE-0001fJ-7I for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:18:17 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RvWh5-00021v-NF for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:18:07 -0500 Original-Received: from mailout-us.gmx.com ([74.208.5.67]:49311) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RvWh5-00021b-BH for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:17:59 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 09 Feb 2012 16:17:39 -0000 Original-Received: from adaptive.cs.unm.edu (EHLO bagel) [64.106.21.179] by mail.gmx.com (mp-us002) with SMTP; 09 Feb 2012 11:17:39 -0500 X-Authenticated: #67821228 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/IsPo8HrTISIdJq0a8NyNfGPKZh4m0uvwFsuiwv4 bzcbnfqzPFSyF9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (gnu/linux) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 74.208.5.67 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:148407 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > RMS> * CL is ugly. It is not well integrated with the rest of Emacs Lisp. > > The second part seems to me to be a circular argument. It could be > better integrated; but it will not be as long as it is not acceptable. > > Maybe we are miscommunicating. The ugliness I am talking about is in > the specs of these functions, not the implementation. The specs of > the CL functions don't fit in well with Emacs Lisp. This isn't > something that could be fixed with more work on the code. Ugliness is a more normative than descriptive word. I assume you are referring the use of keyword arguments in the CL functions, as (to my knowledge) keyword arguments were consciously excluded from elisp and are not used elsewhere. Assuming the above is correct and there are to be no keyword arguments in core elisp functions, then Emacs is in an undesirable position in which core functionality (e.g., `reduce' and `remove-if') is not provided by default, and the common names for such functionality is reserved for functions which will never be included in the core, so it doesn't seem likely that acceptable versions of such functions could ever be included into elisp. -- Eric Schulte http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte/