From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal to improve the nomenclature of scrolling directions Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 10:53:23 +0900 Message-ID: <87a9uvv6ng.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1352166811 15244 80.91.229.3 (6 Nov 2012 01:53:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 01:53:31 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs development discussions , Dani Moncayo To: Daniel Hackney Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 06 02:53:41 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TVYMF-0007Sx-JC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 02:53:39 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54584 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVYM6-0002Uu-Rc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:53:30 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35650) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVYM3-0002US-R7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:53:28 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVYM2-0002A8-Vg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:53:27 -0500 Original-Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:43740) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVYM2-00029d-Jm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:53:26 -0500 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C089707DC; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:53:24 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 131301A3271; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:53:24 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta32) "habanero" b0d40183ac79 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:154695 Archived-At: Daniel Hackney writes: > All of the documentation refers to "movement towards =(point-max)=" as > going towards the end or bottom of the buffer/window. It wouldn't make > sense to say "scroll up to the end of the window" or "scroll all the way > down until you reach the beginning." The term was earlier used with movie credits (and marquees, in the horizontal orientation), and I guess it was borrowed from that usage. There the text clearly scrolls *up* the screen until it reaches the bottom. When you read text from a paper scroll, you also are clearly scrolling *up* in order to read *down* the text. The reason the phrases you give don't make sense[1] is that the implicit object of the verb "scroll" has changed from the text (or the scroll the text is printed on) to something else -- but I wish you luck coming up with a coherent definition of that object for the phrases you quote. Common usage of this term, by any sane measure, is completely confused. Nevertheless, common usage is quite consistent, and everybody seems to know what you mean when "scroll " is used intransitively. Language evolution sucks when you're old enough to realize it's happening! :-) Footnotes: [1] N.B. In the context of a physical scroll of paper, "scroll all the way down until you reach the beginning" *does* make sense.