About the web pages repository

About the web pages repository

[xfq]

Why is the web pages repo of Emacs still using CVS?  I cannot find the
original post for this decision, and I know commits to the web pages
repo are less often than the sources repo.  But I think it is more
convenient and maintainable to use one VCS for a project (Emacs).

--
Best regards, Xue Fuqiao.
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

Re: About the web pages repository

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() xfq <xfq.free@gmail.com>
() Sat, 20 Apr 2013 14:49:34 +0800

   Why is the web pages repo of Emacs still using CVS?  I cannot find
   the original post for this decision, and I know commits to the web
   pages repo are less often than the sources repo.  But I think it is
   more convenient and maintainable to use one VCS for a project
   (Emacs).

The web paegs for all GNU packagess are currently maintained w/ CVS.
Emacs is not special, here.

On my (tertiary) TODO list is asking for (read-only) access to the web
server in order to document the current maintenance (creation, update)
protocol in the form of a tarball (of scripts) + .texi, for offline
analysis, redesign, and testing.  The goal is to raise the protocol's
abstractions and expose a simple configuration item (to savannah) so
that each project's maintainers could choose the VCS for its web pages,
much as they can currently choose the VCS for its source code.

Maybe someone else w/ more time and expertise (in web stuff) can do this
job before me; i for one certainly would not mind (hint hint).

Once that is in place, we can commence Emacs-specific (i.e., multi-year,
circular, exhausting) discussion on which VCS to use for the web pages,
maybe.

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen
GPG key: 4C807502

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Re: About the web pages repository

[xfq]

On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote:

>    Why is the web pages repo of Emacs still using CVS?  I cannot find
>    the original post for this decision, and I know commits to the web
>    pages repo are less often than the sources repo.  But I think it is
>    more convenient and maintainable to use one VCS for a project
>    (Emacs).
>
> The web paegs for all GNU packagess are currently maintained w/ CVS.
> Emacs is not special, here.
>
> On my (tertiary) TODO list is asking for (read-only) access to the web
> server in order to document the current maintenance (creation, update)
> protocol in the form of a tarball (of scripts) + .texi, for offline
> analysis, redesign, and testing.  The goal is to raise the protocol's
> abstractions and expose a simple configuration item (to savannah) so
> that each project's maintainers could choose the VCS for its web pages,
> much as they can currently choose the VCS for its source code.

Good idea.  And we can also learn from XEmacs[fn:1].

> Maybe someone else w/ more time and expertise (in web stuff) can do this
> job before me; i for one certainly would not mind (hint hint).
>
> Once that is in place, we can commence Emacs-specific (i.e., multi-year,
> circular, exhausting) discussion on which VCS to use for the web pages,
> maybe.

That's true.  In emacs-devel, there's huge amounts of opinion throwing.
People don't agree on things, especially on UI/VCS/freedom.  These
threads often spans into hundreds of messages and debates.  In the end,
typically nothing is done or changed.  After years, the very same issue
pops up again...

Footnotes:

[fn:1] http://xemacs.org/About/Website.html

--
Best regards, Xue Fuqiao.
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

Re: About the web pages repository

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

ttn writes:

 > > Once that is in place, we can commence Emacs-specific (i.e.,
 > > multi-year, circular, exhausting) discussion on which VCS to use
 > > for the web pages, maybe.

Why bother?  RCS would be good enough for this.

xfq writes:

 > Good idea.  And we can also learn from XEmacs[fn:1].

 > Footnotes:
 > 
 > [fn:1] http://xemacs.org/About/Website.html

More important than changing the VCS is optimizing the website itself.
It's quite possible that you will not have an explicit VCS at all
(think "wiki").  The framework used by XEmacs is static and very old,
and a PITA to work with.  At the time it was chosen it was plausible,
but today there are much better alternatives.

Re: About the web pages repository

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org>
() Sun, 21 Apr 2013 09:00:56 +0900

   > [selecting a VCS for the web pages]

   Why bother?  RCS would be good enough for this.

I think it's worth bothering precisely because there is so much
discussion.  People become attached to their tools, and hindering them
is dissipative distraction.  It's a big win to save not only Emacs from
this cronic morass, but every other savannah-hosted project (GNU and not
GNU), as well.

As for RCS, well, if the revamped protocol is clean enough, why not?

The argument that the sysadmins don't have time actually supports this
effort -- i imagine (w/o data except for personal interactions re the
projects i admin) a non-trivial portion of the time-consuming tasks is
spent on fixing CVS-related weirdness.  It's empathy for the sysadmins
that spurs me to speak up, actually -- i remember my experiences having
to admin CVS repos (for others) w/ distinct distaste.  Max unfun.

Anyway, i'm falling yet further behind on even *starting* this task,
spewing on and on, so i'll bow out now.  I repeat my invitation for
others to beat me to it.  The thanks from everyone will be thunderous.

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen
GPG key: 4C807502

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Re: About the web pages repository

[chad]

On 21 Apr 2013, at 02:02, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Anyway, i'm falling yet further behind on even *starting* this task,
> spewing on and on, so i'll bow out now.  I repeat my invitation for
> others to beat me to it.  The thanks from everyone will be thunderous.

Slightly off-topic, so please forgive me, but I have a quick question:

Is there data to support the idea that Savannah would like to *move
to* (not *add*) some DVCS for this purpose?

I ask because this project seems relatively well-contained, and I
know someone who might be interested in working on replacing the
CVS support with one of the DVCSes, but I fear that adding DVCS
support to concurrent CVS support might be too much.

Thanks in advance,
~Chad

Re: About the web pages repository

[Glenn Morris]

chad wrote:

> Is there data to support the idea that Savannah would like to *move
> to* (not *add*) some DVCS for this purpose?

RTFL:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnulib/2012-12/msg00072.html

  Whatever happens, "switching" the backend would be a monumental
  mistake.  What's desirable is to support git (or other things -- not
  everyone likes git, really) *as well as* cvs.

Re: About the web pages repository

[chad]

On 21 Apr 2013, at 11:28, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:

> chad wrote:
> 
>> Is there data to support the idea that Savannah would like to *move
>> to* (not *add*) some DVCS for this purpose?
> 
> RTFL:

Thank you; I was having trouble finding TFL.

> [...] What's desirable is to support git (or other things -- not
>  everyone likes git, really) *as well as* cvs.

While this might seem obvious in the "..and I'd like a pony" sense,
it's not obvious to me that people want to continue dealing with
the aches and pains of maintaining CVS repositories. To quote the
message to which I was replying:

On 21 Apr 2013, at 02:02, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> The argument that the sysadmins don't have time actually supports this
> effort -- i imagine (w/o data except for personal interactions re the
> projects i admin) a non-trivial portion of the time-consuming tasks is
> spent on fixing CVS-related weirdness.  It's empathy for the sysadmins
> that spurs me to speak up, actually -- i remember my experiences having
> to admin CVS repos (for others) w/ distinct distaste.  Max unfun.

This suggests a potential world in which `as well as cvs' isn't
necessarily desired (which matches my own experience).

Thanks for the pointer, though; it's very helpful. (bug-gnulib?  huh.)

~Chad

Re: About the web pages repository

[Richard Stallman]

I don't want to change the way we maintain the gnu.org web pages.
It would be substantial work and disruption, and the benefit would
be small since the current system works fine.  The costs exceed
the benefits.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call

Re: About the web pages repository

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 19:11:26 +0800 xfq <xfq.free@gmail.com> wrote: 

x> On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote:

>> Once that is in place, we can commence Emacs-specific (i.e., multi-year,
>> circular, exhausting) discussion on which VCS to use for the web pages,
>> maybe.

x> That's true.  In emacs-devel, there's huge amounts of opinion throwing.
x> People don't agree on things, especially on UI/VCS/freedom.  These
x> threads often spans into hundreds of messages and debates.  In the end,
x> typically nothing is done or changed.  After years, the very same issue
x> pops up again...

Any thread on emacs-devel can be ended immediately by asking for
documentation.

Ted

Re: About the web pages repository

[Xue Fuqiao]

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:17 AM, Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 19:11:26 +0800 xfq <xfq.free@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> x> On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote:
>
>>> Once that is in place, we can commence Emacs-specific (i.e., multi-year,
>>> circular, exhausting) discussion on which VCS to use for the web pages,
>>> maybe.
>
> x> That's true.  In emacs-devel, there's huge amounts of opinion throwing.
> x> People don't agree on things, especially on UI/VCS/freedom.  These
> x> threads often spans into hundreds of messages and debates.  In the end,
> x> typically nothing is done or changed.  After years, the very same issue
> x> pops up again...
>
> Any thread on emacs-devel can be ended immediately by asking for
> documentation.

Sorry but I really don't understand what you mean, would you please explain?

--
Best regards, Xue Fuqiao.
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

Re: About the web pages repository

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:41:25 +0800 Xue Fuqiao <xfq.free@gmail.com> wrote: 

XF> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:17 AM, Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 19:11:26 +0800 xfq <xfq.free@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
x> That's true.  In emacs-devel, there's huge amounts of opinion throwing.
x> People don't agree on things, especially on UI/VCS/freedom.  These
x> threads often spans into hundreds of messages and debates.  In the end,
x> typically nothing is done or changed.  After years, the very same issue
x> pops up again...
>> 
>> Any thread on emacs-devel can be ended immediately by asking for
>> documentation.

XF> Sorry but I really don't understand what you mean, would you please explain?

No one wants to do the boring work of writing docs, but almost everyone
wants to contribute code.  And absolutely everyone has an opinion.

Ted

[OFFTOPIC] Re: About the web pages repository

[Stefan Monnier]

> On my (tertiary) TODO list is asking for (read-only) access to the web
> server in order to document the current maintenance (creation, update)
> protocol in the form of a tarball (of scripts) + .texi, for offline
> analysis, redesign, and testing.  The goal is to raise the protocol's
> abstractions and expose a simple configuration item (to savannah) so
> that each project's maintainers could choose the VCS for its web pages,
> much as they can currently choose the VCS for its source code.

FWIW, I think imposing a single VCS for all the web-pages of all
packages is a fine decision.  IOW, I'd rather switch wholesale from CVS
to "whatever else is elected" than go through the effort of designing
and then maintaining a system that leaves the option to each and every
package maintainer.

Savannah people are busy enough as it is that we should keep the
complexity out as much as possible.


        Stefan

Re: About the web pages repository

[Andreas Schwab]

xfq <xfq.free@gmail.com> writes:

> Why is the web pages repo of Emacs still using CVS?

Savannah only supports CVS for web pages.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: About the web pages repository

[Glenn Morris]

xfq wrote:

> Why is the web pages repo of Emacs still using CVS?  I cannot find the
> original post for this decision, and I know commits to the web pages
> repo are less often than the sources repo.  But I think it is more
> convenient and maintainable to use one VCS for a project (Emacs).

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnulib/2012-12/msg00066.html

and numerous other places. Key quote:

    Meanwhile, it's pretty pointless to have this discussion (for the
    umpteenth time) when none of us are the people who are going to do the
    work. [...]

    If anyone wants access to savannah to look around on their own, try to
    understand and help with the systems there (and has time available to do
    such), just let me know.  There is no barrier there.

So if you think this is important, off you go.