From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jambunathan K Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs history, and "Is Emacs difficult to learn?" Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 20:16:05 +0530 Message-ID: <87a9l577bm.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87y58pplcp.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1375109084 5441 80.91.229.3 (29 Jul 2013 14:44:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 14:44:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 29 16:44:46 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V3ogo-0001XO-66 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2013 16:44:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33106 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V3ogn-0004e5-MS for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:44:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36432) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V3ogS-0004dQ-Ee for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:44:28 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V3ogM-00017v-9O for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:44:24 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]:48600) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V3ogM-00017p-3G for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:44:18 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id fa1so5939390pad.19 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2013 07:44:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=c7BWvh1d5B5jnASRGZc7nzv7DQzxXSpNtHvIHpGN6E8=; b=CLxHEBYmL1bSXR5b2fIcIkRjbqKTNQB7lz4ihaEvt50w8t0wZZLI6ky2WT0MiYHi0n dxGprB1RhlfXn7suMxs2ftyCUABNIjpbI5gCNewbZcmip+mvlcaOmcX5Lm2BlZxKZ52Y TSoTSP6AAj4UQsJs9mSED2sJJdVqztlj6cvuK1+u4KomPZ3Pzkp6UKHjczyG6tvgjfD7 yVK1UnMmgQAQAraRGoXUpWCA4Mf4rH8liEyPOSnWKY6e2VFJrKkrLJfkglW1i/Tf4ONc ovswbFJSqXpR9kW+gWbaF3rqm0hhAY8GF5TQtUnRMyAU+ffzbyfWlQDHq1SR31N27fGh CklQ== X-Received: by 10.69.0.129 with SMTP id ay1mr20649183pbd.41.1375109057075; Mon, 29 Jul 2013 07:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from debian-6.05 ([115.242.191.104]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ib9sm77298514pbc.43.2013.07.29.07.44.14 for (version=TLSv1.1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Jul 2013 07:44:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87y58pplcp.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> (Emanuel Berg's message of "Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:05:42 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:92508 Archived-At: Emanuel Berg writes: >> Remember he [RMS] is talking about secretaries in early days of >> computing learning Emacs and learning programming in the >> process. I am sure secretaries had no CS degrees and more >> importantly they belonged to a period when computers were not >> common place and were quite the cutting edge. I just laugh when >> young kids in this day of Google complain that Emacs is >> primitive and is difficult to learn. I consider it a joke. Welcome back! This time let's talk about Emacs! We are discussing - http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html What fascinates me in that article is this, ,---- | They used a manual someone had written which showed how to extend | Emacs, but didn't say it was a programming. So the secretaries, | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | who believed they couldn't do programming, weren't scared | ^^^^^^^^ | ^^^^^^^^ | off. They read the manual, discovered they could do useful things | and they learned to program. `---- The magic phrases are - "didn't say it was a programming" and "believed". Belief or No-Belief, learning, stopping short of saying the whole truth - all seem interesting to me. Do they help or hinder learning? Specifically, if someone is interested in introducing Emacs to a non-Emacs user, what strategies should they adopt to maximize their chances of having a new convert. I welcome any insights from both the victors and the vanquished on the "Convert to or introduce Emacs battle". Personally, my first love with Emacs was when someone showed M-q to me and the most uglily indented text aligned nicely between the margins. > If you, on the other hand, write poetry or whatever with Emacs, Not a poet here.