From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Marcin Borkowski Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Long file names in Dired Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 23:02:39 +0200 Message-ID: <87a8xxgryo.fsf@mbork.pl> References: <87sibq9v12.fsf@debian.uxu> <878udhvr0r.fsf@mbork.pl> <87zj5x28kk.fsf@gmx.us> <87618lvpf5.fsf@mbork.pl> <87vbgl25hx.fsf@gmx.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1429909399 8728 80.91.229.3 (24 Apr 2015 21:03:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 21:03:19 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 24 23:03:08 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YlkkY-0002pV-NN for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2015 23:03:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46505 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YlkkY-0006HZ-47 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2015 17:03:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57887) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YlkkL-0006HG-Tg for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2015 17:02:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YlkkI-0008Kr-J6 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2015 17:02:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([2a01:5e00:2:52::8]:41804) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YlkkH-0008Kg-Qp for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2015 17:02:46 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3E46F2005 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2015 23:02:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wOebHwnb5MKk for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2015 23:02:41 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [109.232.24.146]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B68C3572065 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2015 23:02:40 +0200 (CEST) In-reply-to: <87vbgl25hx.fsf@gmx.us> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a01:5e00:2:52::8 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:103984 Archived-At: On 2015-04-24, at 12:19, Rasmus wrote: > Marcin Borkowski writes: > >>>> I. HATE. BIBTEX. WITH. A. PASSION. >>>> [...] >>> >>> I find the format OK. I can't imagine a vastly superior format for >>> metadata... >> >> 1. Multiple authors are separated with the five-character string >> " and ". > > I type quickly enough for this not to bother me. Perhaps ";" would be > better, but for the sake of comparability I can live with " and ". OTO= H > it may make human parsing more easy when reading the bib file. It's not about typing. It's about the stupidity of the format itself (see below). >> Can you imagine a more stupid idea? What if you want to quote >> an anonymous report whose author field should say "National Aeronautic= s >> and Space Administration"? Yes, you /can/ quote the " and ", but this >> shouldn't be even needed. > > Author =3D {{National Aeronautics and Space Administration}} I know. But see above and below. Why not use amsref's approach of "repeatable fields"? >> 2. BibTeX separates the author name into (at most) four components, >> called "first", "last", "von" and "jr". No support for: Chinese names >> (not fitting into this format)e and names in some other languages (I'm >> forgetting now which ones). > > Another flaw is the auto-guessing of names e.g. for three names one mus= t > use "last, first middle" vs "first last" or "last, first" for two names= . > >> 3. What about alphabetic sorting in various languages? > > This is orthogonal to the format. I believe Biber reads unicode. Fair enough. >> 4. Since BibTeX is aimed (after all) at a typesetting system, what abo= ut >> diferent hyphenation patterns? Imagine an article written in Polish, >> citing a paper by a German (so the name should be hyphenated different= ly >> than the rest of the document), the paper being in English, and >> published by an Italian university. Where's support for that (i.e., >> language field for the author, title etc.)? > > Biblatex will read language field. I don't know how it uses it. In an= y > case, that's orthogonal to the bibtex format as a "database". No, it's not. As I hinted above, what's really needed is a language "field" for /any other field/, separately. One "language" field per /entry/ is not enough. >> (Not to mention several authors from various langauge backgrounds.) > > If there's a name you can't type, I guess it's the fault of unicode. See above. Due to the idiocy of the " and " approach, even if there were a method of declaring different languages for different fields, it wouldn't help here. This is not about scripts, but about e.g. hyphenation patterns (which are language-dependent), or decomposing names into parts (which BibTeX /the program/ can't do correctly anyway, and the format doesn't help a lot, either). >> 5. What about all these funny characters not found in English, and in >> particular sorting using them? (See the docs for the xindy indexing >> tool for examples of nontrivial problems regarding locale-aware >> sorting.) > > This is a flaw with the bibtex program. Biber is better. Of course, you're right here. > BTW: Emacs 24 can't do local-aware sorting (but string-collate-lessp is= in > 25). This would suggest to me that it's a nontrivial problem. Yes, it /is/ nontrivial. (See xindy's docs for real-life examples.) >> 6. What about custom citation styles? Have you seen the syntax of the >> bst files? If yes, you know the pain, and if not, you'd better not lo= ok >> at them, for your own good... > > Yes. I used to use custombib or whatever it was called to generate bst > files. Pain. > > Again, this is orthogonal to the bibtex file-format. Again, you're right here. >> 7. BibTeX is not really "case-sensitive" or "case-insensitive", it's >> "case-destroying". IOW, /you have to quote capital letters in titles/ >> so that BibTeX doesn't convert them to lowercase. > > I think you can use: {{}}. Yes, but /why/ should the user be enforced to do /that/? >> BTW, BibLaTeX addresses (AFAIK) problems 3, 5, 6 and 7. > > Would 3 not be biber? For 4 perhaps you can use the langid field (pp. = 24 > in the "texdoc biblatex" in TL14). I don't know if it's as extensive a= s > you need. By "BibLaTeX" I mean the whole thing - the LaTeX package /and/ Biber. >> The amsrefs package addresses problems 1, 2, 4, 6 and 7. > > I don't know it. The AMS math packages are good quality. Yes, at least from the user's perspective - reading their code can sometimes reveal some funny skeletons in the closet;-). >> Again: nice, and thanks for the tips. But still, BibTeX is a wrong to= ol >> for that. > > I'm using the *format*, not the binary "bibtex". Biber is good, and vi= a > reftex Emacs has good support for the bibtex format. So I heard. It's a pity that reftex doesn't support amsrefs. (I'm considering helping to remedy this situation.) >> Note that no BibTeX based solution helps /if I want to be able to move >> files between directories/. > > In the above system you'd move *folders* rather than files. An entry i= s a > container (folder) of: So it's even worse. What I want is the ability to e.g. simply move the pdf from the directory "to-read" to the directory "articles-on-fixed-points". > =E2=80=94Rasmus Best, --=20 Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science Adam Mickiewicz University