From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:53:47 -0500 Message-ID: <87a8ijreus.fsf@red-bean.com> References: Reply-To: Karl Fogel NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1466178920 27318 80.91.229.3 (17 Jun 2016 15:55:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:55:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rswgnu@gmail.com, adatgyujto@gmail.com, mats.lidell@cag.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 17 17:55:19 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bDw70-00071v-OW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:55:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58567 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDw6z-0005EP-Uq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:55:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52667) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDw5m-0005CN-F9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:53:59 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDw5j-0000Ox-7i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:53:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-it0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22c]:35267) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDw5j-0000Ot-2z; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:53:55 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-it0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id z189so165885566itg.0; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:53:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=HGS7ftAfrHIUKZ3ezpeRojLLwAPnw6T/wawmwFooXOo=; b=eJLB8UrEgZnbSEv9amzWz0LZnLlnYyr1SLW16qOIxE7GtFCoF0WaryP1BrxK5I0JK3 xCdVIO8ZOFwmipEDUm1mkSvFYbiSaRrzEHfYLK5ZOo7BuAnasL1tsYE1I4RMdqNQ3rjA hZcZaRDIENFVfOyTiLzS0X2/oHAbMBFpwJHtGzcdbhQCcE33Sg0jy1QwopL7bLZ5VW+b iERa6Hvg+ZzL2KXizmazS/pYuRqjdXWHwWYxV5xDyqjOPC2x8DGh5YHMBpSwn5Cey8YX qhefBjawQD9sKxPCOWiGFb7jJvaYVMK07grA5g0YTtvjUdpc/eynuoq5xdCeKY/nqD4J c2mw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=HGS7ftAfrHIUKZ3ezpeRojLLwAPnw6T/wawmwFooXOo=; b=A0HSbzexrmHbShcQFxQCInDoyuzVh3QApKgVfmC6BQUoQrlVbZWzaEpfmYWlWKWeNT F7X6i/3CqYAn6mCMovcrjXgPXUtQTqobhoG3CO6upGjawwMO+C1Ftp2j3EJ3QH4RcVKm gAumEo/OzWIRbO52Grg9XmvWYJM5g8dHe2sG6hoC0GkboYZ+O7q8kuXvTy2Q1g0kR8Ri OTUVuQg+Et2m2Qo8lNGkF1iQtdIZGf4oQDyHbgAfTcQn0POPZEwC6uJWjels8NJkTwwl 54WaMUr3tzBwa0Eidl5aqBCcc+PFFKjgme59+ytXP3MlFCSMfB013sYn1Kg/E/U7dpFq BAcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tI5fRWc/iDayJrVHmsoCpJs7aSF8MBcXDowP01wUWADzE+/QcSA8S1KgizAEnCYSA== X-Received: by 10.36.123.199 with SMTP id q190mr4622313itc.42.1466178834242; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from floss (74-92-190-114-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [74.92.190.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v78sm5919582itc.13.2016.06.17.08.53.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:53:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:18:58 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:204449 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: >Org mode is an example of how Emacs development went astray. > >Emacs has many different modes and features. Users should be able to >use them all either separately or (when meaningful) in combination. >The problem with Org mode is that many separate features have been >tied together inside it. You can't use them separately. > >The right way to integrate Org mode into Emacs would be to pry out >each of those subfeatures and integrate it individually -- so that a >user could use each of them either with or without Org mode. It is >not too late for people to do this sort of thing, but it should have >been done before. > >It may be that this issue applies to Hyperbole too. If so, I hope >that we will handle Hyperbole better than we handled Org mode. > >For instance, Emacs should have a calendar which does not depend on >Hyperbole or BBDB or Org mode (but can work well with any of them). I think (probably agreeing with John W) that this is oversimplifying. Org Mode, like Emacs, requires a fair amount of investment on the part of the user before the rewards arrive. Once the rewards finally start arriving, the investment becomes worth it -- but until until then, one makes the effort on faith. Unfortunately, the investment of effort required for Org Mode is not the _same_ effort as for Emacs. First one makes the Emacs investment, and then later one makes the Org Mode investment on top of that. Both will pay off, if the investment is done right. But if one hasn't made that investment for Org Mode, then it is easy to view Org Mode as having gone astray.