From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mark Oteiza Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Friendly discussion about (package-initialize) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:00:58 -0400 Message-ID: <87a8372nwl.fsf@holos> References: <83inhwrqvh.fsf@gnu.org> <83h8xfsx5m.fsf@gnu.org> <83bmnns0jm.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1502395305 28291 195.159.176.226 (10 Aug 2017 20:01:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 20:01:45 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Radon Rosborough , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 10 22:01:41 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dfteF-00070F-Mq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:01:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55046 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dfteL-0003lm-Tz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:01:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42978) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dftdj-0003kg-C1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:01:08 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dftdf-0000u9-3m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:01:07 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qk0-x243.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c09::243]:32893) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dftde-0000tV-T1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:01:03 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qk0-x243.google.com with SMTP id d145so1724469qkc.0 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:01:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=udel-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=FpV3oOMgMVoq2neqNcp37ryPlevgHuJ78vjJ4YcGoNk=; b=y3kt2xFfayX37FIDprbDvTM712n5qZIWmT0qq7jITLZ6HduDKA0SX+x3oIhhkW8Suu vC711Mo6IrI/Rng4cAxM/aNj7HlNbBAR/7h4Uv6152cCUbayh1oRfYckm9XrUrl/pP03 gg1M0imGYbZgtt9VngCBMhvpmyMtjI8wTsm88g7+2LB/iHuTe5omH9Fx93Uo2JBD5d+d qhf+3a+X+CcsGM7ivz0MmIC5zjl1/bVCEqbXxh69NsFpc5o0xY0CeH3cafhiMTKvQ58X ntyhwusK87+2VUkAEa930zgJcRTb9poa3GfinS1TZGT4U4mJ1ObwnuOh5YlD4wPfKkSI uxow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=FpV3oOMgMVoq2neqNcp37ryPlevgHuJ78vjJ4YcGoNk=; b=uCCX7dhLSglO4pCCqTJko1VhmZSPuJWzjSwdkw75P43kcdSzoKDU9MAG6Bu8ppL8vH jEgbddC8/l7qncUNoyvQFF6K8DvaEj8a5+oiMEE2cT/ktzj058Ty3Dkv0uYhWs9XPS56 d4WqjyOP89sFwQskF1BuFzLGtKXGyJ2ydwTOwBHvjG/q3+R5SJwW8UnxTM66VcpQXu/h AK47MjTHBcwLA449uvY8pbVdaiTRZCqkicUfXMimI5dKKFxeNa/ETDy+5Z8n2E8arr8b ae9oVIwJBMf/Podm/5prVSXJEZmfLCIYB9XxcXa8KC1Ow9ZCTisw6EhYf0PHrzCzZ9o7 ud8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jcZgGQ+5NFN8qWLgSg6IBJHTXw3ia72fbt62e7Vmnkt+C/nPmr kqohaAkNTBfczKj7 X-Received: by 10.55.155.23 with SMTP id d23mr16130685qke.271.1502395260403; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from holos.localdomain (pool-173-64-88-95.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net. [173.64.88.95]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b71sm4130281qkj.8.2017.08.10.13.00.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by holos.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 464E368E5E; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:00:58 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <83bmnns0jm.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 10 Aug 2017 22:08:45 +0300") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::243 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217399 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> > If we call package-initialize from startup.el, why does it have to >> > also be called from the init files? >> >> IMO, it should not be called anywhere. I think having it only called >> in startup.el would be a reasonable compromise. Having Emacs insist on >> putting the call into the init-file, but then *also* calling it in >> startup.el, makes no sense. > > Thanks, but that doesn't really answer my question. I asked why do we > put a call to package-initialize into user init file when we already > have that very call in startup.el. The form is put there in order to coddle users who copy-paste configurations a) into their init files, or b) in Customize settings, that use symbols from packages before the packages are (auto-)loaded. To quote the implementer (from this thread[2]): > Another consequence is that users can't paste > configurations into their init file in the way that 90% of the > (emacs-related) internet is telling them to. > By adding the chosen snippet to the user's init file we are preventing > this sort of problem for new users, instead of telling them it's their > fault for not understanding package.el. FWIW here are some other links to threads surrounding the issue when it was being debated/implemented: [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-03/msg00897.html [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-03/msg01016.html [2] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-04/msg00002.html