From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Michael Heerdegen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 06:28:36 +0200 Message-ID: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="247359"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 29 06:29:11 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hrxHa-0012Dp-3k for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1564374519; bh=Epq48QGocLP4rSsno+k2rjxYOcq1BpeIf5QaGOPg9jg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Qzrdmjn+3ZjDs9dWpJMPW9WNTMpt0QtvgB25OmTHRRadLS+wIvsiPg5tBD3ivQsC4 iBsrlOt4gw7Fmd7fGYsINmixTvxHR87iwzn+6WeuUJ0D6LQ9qr37ZRZcE/AtpKhrCa ZQph5OJHw6s5h9F87UjFzafw49ZaVXPNZcsTTYps= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Original-Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.178.242]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb001 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MPGym-1hnXQF0bhI-004Pyd; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 06:28:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 28 Jul 2019 20:01:12 +0200") X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:DJ7tQ/Y0WDEPX/hSYp8+hvsuclMFFLc55eLbgPIFW0BQHTpRVsc 3cEnPjEMFXcknWjVA4Yyf119nohdplnM0LRjKWk/ItcDNvDKl4sE5NGjf9ueoPruK7R+wUL yF4IdZOcr1tuIPvKjJVuhe7lRk0F9u63AP/wA4V8LAQckoUz0TDilDHAIsBsUAz5fhdJ8Q3 BCqJu0+aep9dVfeR2aQVg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:DSrr8AY3f8I=:vJB25w3P3+oEthTS40Y45a /IjAmltxEiFOA2H7Vng06Edp2ZlfqPWxVfbCHTjhGfsxFdJD3Xuo3PpKiW6n5LLbC81EA9qC8 FDKF475dLwo41HF1UULu0WsWMzMv5B5Mq725ElgSmxo6MdkFtdHh2LawuugfC2io8U5hUO7vD LCkDvxeUaC1Mg9rLT0qQZ7mPuYqE74vfb6ALmUuqmrBmlqnniqC9HdSAcKVpQZvnz86OzsIEm /g1jLWRjXpcI8lDu3B6m46kgquk3p+Jq0Pd33/Ip/IMiiWt0bmh9RQ9AlMWlBeCDdISYKI+SU rSt6kRWYsFbLMzITvpq5A6RgH8Re7g4gxZDwMWGpmpNvYcDM96VV/xCMhmwpVVqJ2PKvEdGSy sOzQV7Xir6dzxDTwSH/01HEksP4d8rtdReQsrgyTkTTwN7UgzGnwok9K4FqFOOBWnVmL8CYcZ LA/89ghGvkif0/8+s9dLEgCBR0tPAzEpyilTYl7HcuIf9EXjKz093Tpkmgilvc7ADgkuZldsv JprKN6ay1JqzbpJhYS0xDDpdBq7MOmP7muxU/ndfq1N1gzy8zd1KVgixKDtm4DJA6AQrkwZHB IUKuxltUqGcaeX9LZhznfF37AJ5r0pKeJWOBrBez1hMK0BraoUmvTQ/cDCxYMEM6chpUgI/MH 5X64o4fX8cZQaOWHgOGsKuKiAiSky30Sn5/gBS6+Hi7LfzyBxlgUk0Rlpu3xnNHAtLB8os695 3amj6KwX+5vTOj34TbRD7R1llgizBTgqk/K59nyHLrEiiGzLYYUKC72TFxJIbtoTkSXPn6ib X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:164005 Archived-At: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I think this sounds useful. I'm often rooting around not quite sure > what variable I'm looking for in the help buffers, and trying > different values, and having a command to make this faster would be > nice. There's `customize-variable', but I... just don't like it. > (And besides, not all variables are customisable...) There are also some downsides: - Changing variables might break Emacs if you are not knowing what you are doing. Customize at least has some safety checks. Users might not expect that clicking on the button and changing values might have dangerous consequences. Likewise, Emacs might change or modify the value and users wonder why their setting had been "rejected". With other words: it is potentially dangerous and might confuse users. - It is no fun for variables with complicated values, like large lists of lists. Just a minibuffer prompt would not be nice. Here you probably still would use scratch or so. And even in the situation you described, I would prefer having an expression in scratch, edit and eval it, compared to clicking a button in the help buffer and edit in the mb or a popup buffer. - There are nitpicks which may complicate doing what at first sounds simple, e.g. what if the value includes things were printing and reading comes into play? E.g. buffers: they have a print syntax, but it's not a read syntax. Objects may be replaced by equal objects (e.g. lists will be recreated) which might confuse Emacs. There is buffer local vs. global bindings of variables (and hooks), etc. But my main point is the question if we should really invite the typical user, which is not an Emacs developer (ok, here I'm not really sure if I'm right) to change variables on the fly, or if it's not better if these users are directed to customize, and the others use just M-: or ielm or what they use now. Michael.