orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.]

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Hello,

As of writing (September 19, 2022) the https://orgmode.org/ welcome page
says to install org-mode via MELPA.  However, again as of that date that
cannot be done as org-mode is in neither MELPA nor in MELPA Stable.  This
appears either to be a bug in the https://orgmode.org/ welcome page or with
the release workflow or with the package managers or with some combination
thereof.  Please see the attached screenshots.

Regards,
David A. Ventimiglia

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Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.]

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Sorry, nevermind.  It's been a long day.

On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 3:57 PM David Ventimiglia <
davidaventimiglia@hasura.io> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> As of writing (September 19, 2022) the https://orgmode.org/ welcome page
> says to install org-mode via MELPA.  However, again as of that date that
> cannot be done as org-mode is in neither MELPA nor in MELPA Stable.  This
> appears either to be a bug in the https://orgmode.org/ welcome page or
> with the release workflow or with the package managers or with some
> combination thereof.  Please see the attached screenshots.
>
> Regards,
> David A. Ventimiglia
>
> [image: Screenshot from 2022-09-19 15-54-30.png]
> [image: Screenshot from 2022-09-19 15-54-16.png]
> [image: Screenshot from 2022-09-19 15-53-51.png]
>
>

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Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi David,

David Ventimiglia via "General discussions about Org-mode."
<emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> writes:

> Sorry, nevermind.

Done.  :)

Let us know if there is still something I can do to make it more
obvious that this is GNU ELPA and not GNU MELPA.  Many users may
make this confusion but I'm short of ideas.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Let us know if there is still something I can do to make it more
> obvious that this is GNU ELPA and not GNU MELPA.  Many users may
> make this confusion but I'm short of ideas.

The only idea coming to my mind is turning "GNU ELPA" into a link.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> The only idea coming to my mind is turning "GNU ELPA" into a link.

Done, thanks the suggestion!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Timothy]

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Hi Bastien,

The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
up later today. See Matrix for a preview I put together by just editing the
in-browser HTML. Also let me know if you don’t use Matrix at all, I just thought
I’d send you a message since you’re on there 🙂.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
> up later today. 

As discussed on Matrix, please go ahead -- for future suggestions on
the website, it's fine to discuss them on this list.

Thanks a lot !

-- 
 Bastien

IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:
>
>> The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
>> up later today. 
>
> As discussed on Matrix, please go ahead -- for future suggestions on
> the website, it's fine to discuss them on this list.

The problem with the list is that emails often have ~minutes overheads.
It sometimes takes unnecessary extra time to discuss small
clarifications on list.

I am wondering if we could create a common Org dev matrix room for quick
discussions and then copy the transcript to the relevant ML thread, when
necessary.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Russell Adams]

On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 05:22:50PM +0800, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> The problem with the list is that emails often have ~minutes overheads.
> It sometimes takes unnecessary extra time to discuss small
> clarifications on list.
>
> I am wondering if we could create a common Org dev matrix room for quick
> discussions and then copy the transcript to the relevant ML thread, when
> necessary.

We have an IRC channel for real time chat. Join in anytime.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
                                    https://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:

>> I am wondering if we could create a common Org dev matrix room for quick
>> discussions and then copy the transcript to the relevant ML thread, when
>> necessary.
>
> We have an IRC channel for real time chat. Join in anytime.

The disadvantage of IRC is absence of message history.
Without history, small-sized channels like I am proposing (dedicated to
Org mode devs) are not very useful. We live in different time zones and
countries.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Russell Adams]

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 04:05:56PM +0800, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:
>
> >> I am wondering if we could create a common Org dev matrix room for quick
> >> discussions and then copy the transcript to the relevant ML thread, when
> >> necessary.
> >
> > We have an IRC channel for real time chat. Join in anytime.
>
> The disadvantage of IRC is absence of message history.
> Without history, small-sized channels like I am proposing (dedicated to
> Org mode devs) are not very useful. We live in different time zones and
> countries.

I disagree. That's why most IRC users stay logged in.

IRC is most accessible, and if you insist there is a Matrix bridge to
Libera.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
                                    https://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Russell Adams]

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 10:59:14AM +0200, Russell Adams wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 04:05:56PM +0800, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> > Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:
> >
> > >> I am wondering if we could create a common Org dev matrix room for quick
> > >> discussions and then copy the transcript to the relevant ML thread, when
> > >> necessary.
> > >
> > > We have an IRC channel for real time chat. Join in anytime.
> >
> > The disadvantage of IRC is absence of message history.
> > Without history, small-sized channels like I am proposing (dedicated to
> > Org mode devs) are not very useful. We live in different time zones and
> > countries.
>
> I disagree. That's why most IRC users stay logged in.
>
> IRC is most accessible, and if you insist there is a Matrix bridge to
> Libera.

Let me pose this differently.

The #org-mode channel has a large footprint already, though lower
utilization than #emacs. There are 230 org users online right now.

It would be great to see some dev discussions on IRC, and if we ever
get too much traffic, maybe make a #org-mode-dev channel.

I'd encourage you to try to use the existing resources first,
especially where the user base is. Then split things up later.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
                                    https://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:

> The #org-mode channel has a large footprint already, though lower
> utilization than #emacs. There are 230 org users online right now.
>
> It would be great to see some dev discussions on IRC, and if we ever
> get too much traffic, maybe make a #org-mode-dev channel.
>
> I'd encourage you to try to use the existing resources first,
> especially where the user base is. Then split things up later.

This is an option. #emacs is very too noisy for me, but #org-mode
appears to be fairly quiet. It may work.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Timothy,

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
> up later today. See Matrix for a preview I put together by just editing the
> in-browser HTML. Also let me know if you don’t use Matrix at all, I just thought

Thank you for the https://orgmode.org homepage enhancements!

One nitpick: using a mailto:emacs-orgmode@gnu.org?subject="..." : I'd
rather advertize M-x org-submit-bug-report RET than making it easier
to send just an email: the `org-submit-bug-report' function comes with
more information, and casual users might not know it.

Would it be okay to

1. replace both "report bug" and "feedback" buttons by a "feedback"
   button, pointing to manual https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html ?

2. Add a line above the Repository explicitely exposing the command
   M-x org-submit-bug-report RET ?

Let me know and I'll do it, thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Max Nikulin]

On 20/09/2022 12:41, Timothy wrote:
> Hi Bastien,
> 
> The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
> up later today. See Matrix for a preview I put together by just editing the
> in-browser HTML. Also let me know if you don’t use Matrix at all, I just thought
> I’d send you a message since you’re on there 🙂.

Timothy, thank you for improvements. Earlier edits in response to 
various requests resulted in some inconsistencies.

The updated page has

     alt="Install from ELPA"

that likely should be "Install from GNU ELPA". I like that new link 
leads directly to the Org package at GNU ELPA, earlier version had a 
link to the site top page.

However Firefox does not show tooltips (unlike for the Librepay link) 
when mouse cursor is over new SVG images. I have no idea if 
screenreaders will use value of the alt attributes.

I expect that some fraction of messages at this list will have "[BUG] 
<short description>" subject literally. Perhaps "&body=..." may be added 
with a template like "Org version: ___, Emacs version: ___" with a note 
requesting subject more specific to the particular problem. Some people 
still will not read it.

An unrelated to the latest changes question. What is the supposed way to 
reach https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html from site main page (to 
become aware of M-x `org-submit-bug-report'?

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Hi Ihor,

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> This is an option. #emacs is very too noisy for me, but #org-mode
> appears to be fairly quiet. It may work.

I agree with Russell that we should first use the available resources,
and our IRC chan on irc.libera.chat is a good one.

(I'm actually there BTW, lurking - you can ping me anytime as I can
read past messages, thanks to being connected with my sr.ht account.)

But IMO there is an even stronger argument: in the case of Org, we
should encourage discussions where both "users" and "developers" can
chime in.  Because many Org users are potential contributors.  (This
would not be the same with another Free Software project, of course.)

If #org-mode can serve for both general questions and dev-oriented
discussion it's good.  If it becomes annoying for many readers, then
setting up transient chans is okay (even on matrix), the same way it
is okay to sit in a room and hack/discuss possible new Org features
with peers.

In general, Org contributors with push access can fix bugs directly,
without announcing this on the mailing list.  But *all other changes*
should be submitted and discussed on this mailing list.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Max,

Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> writes:

> The updated page has
>
>     alt="Install from ELPA"
>
> that likely should be "Install from GNU ELPA". 

Fixed, thanks.

> I like that new link
> leads directly to the Org package at GNU ELPA, earlier version had a
> link to the site top page.

+1!

> However Firefox does not show tooltips (unlike for the Librepay link)
> when mouse cursor is over new SVG images. I have no idea if
> screenreaders will use value of the alt attributes.

I added title="" properties.

> I expect that some fraction of messages at this list will have "[BUG]
> <short description>" subject literally. Perhaps "&body=..." may be
> added with a template like "Org version: ___, Emacs version: ___" with
> a note requesting subject more specific to the particular
> problem. Some people still will not read it.

Agreed -- I removed this mailto: link as suggestion in a previous
reply to Tim...

> An unrelated to the latest changes question. What is the supposed way
> to reach https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html from site main page
> (to become aware of M-x `org-submit-bug-report'?

... and placed the https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html link as
the target of the "feedback" svg icon.  

I also added the M-x org-submit-bug-report RET exlpicitely, as it is
something we want users to discover very soon.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?)

[Tim Cross]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi Ihor,
>
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> This is an option. #emacs is very too noisy for me, but #org-mode
>> appears to be fairly quiet. It may work.
>
> I agree with Russell that we should first use the available resources,
> and our IRC chan on irc.libera.chat is a good one.
>
> (I'm actually there BTW, lurking - you can ping me anytime as I can
> read past messages, thanks to being connected with my sr.ht account.)
>
> But IMO there is an even stronger argument: in the case of Org, we
> should encourage discussions where both "users" and "developers" can
> chime in.  Because many Org users are potential contributors.  (This
> would not be the same with another Free Software project, of course.)
>
> If #org-mode can serve for both general questions and dev-oriented
> discussion it's good.  If it becomes annoying for many readers, then
> setting up transient chans is okay (even on matrix), the same way it
> is okay to sit in a room and hack/discuss possible new Org features
> with peers.
>
> In general, Org contributors with push access can fix bugs directly,
> without announcing this on the mailing list.  But *all other changes*
> should be submitted and discussed on this mailing list.

Just wondering what the better approach is these days. I've not used IRC
much for a long, long time. I see discussions about matrix and believe
there is an Emacs matrix package as well as matrix to IRC bridges.

One thing I do find frustrating these days is the fracturing of
communications across so many different solutions. Makes me really miss
newsgroups! It seems like almost every project I'm interested in these
days is using a different solution for IM. (one reason I stopped using
IRC was because most of the projects I was interested in stopped using
it or the majority of interesting discussions moved to some other platform).

To avoid a proliferation of IM apps, I get the impression you could use
Matrix and get access to many different messaging environments. Is this
correct and is the Emacs matrix client mature/stable?

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> But IMO there is an even stronger argument: in the case of Org, we
> should encourage discussions where both "users" and "developers" can
> chime in.  Because many Org users are potential contributors.  (This
> would not be the same with another Free Software project, of course.)

Indeed. IM is mostly meant for quick brainstorming, which cannot be
done in a reasonable time frame on ML. It worked quite nicely in
communication between me and TEC.

> If #org-mode can serve for both general questions and dev-oriented
> discussion it's good.  If it becomes annoying for many readers, then
> setting up transient chans is okay (even on matrix), the same way it
> is okay to sit in a room and hack/discuss possible new Org features
> with peers.

Agree.

> In general, Org contributors with push access can fix bugs directly,
> without announcing this on the mailing list.  But *all other changes*
> should be submitted and discussed on this mailing list.

Sure. It is always nice to have historical records on why certain
decisions have been made.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> One thing I do find frustrating these days is the fracturing of
> communications across so many different solutions. Makes me really miss
> newsgroups! It seems like almost every project I'm interested in these
> days is using a different solution for IM. (one reason I stopped using
> IRC was because most of the projects I was interested in stopped using
> it or the majority of interesting discussions moved to some other platform).

There are also bridges from * to IRC. See
https://web.archive.org/web/20220607072519/https://200ok.ch/posts/2019-11-01_irc_and_emacs_all_the_things.html
https://wiki.bitlbee.org/

> To avoid a proliferation of IM apps, I get the impression you could use
> Matrix and get access to many different messaging environments. Is this
> correct and is the Emacs matrix client mature/stable?

Emacs matrix client is ement.el developed by @alphapapa. It has been
recently released on GNU ELPA. So, you can see it as stable enough.

However, Matrix protocol itself is not yet stable. Something to keep in
mind.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Would it be okay to
>
> 1. replace both "report bug" and "feedback" buttons by a "feedback"
>    button, pointing to manual https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html ?

I feel like it is good idea to keep both "report bug" and "feedback"
buttons, even if they point to the same link. "report bug" is not always
associated with "feedback". Having both links may be easier for users to
navigate where they are aiming to.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?)

[Tim Cross]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> One thing I do find frustrating these days is the fracturing of
>> communications across so many different solutions. Makes me really miss
>> newsgroups! It seems like almost every project I'm interested in these
>> days is using a different solution for IM. (one reason I stopped using
>> IRC was because most of the projects I was interested in stopped using
>> it or the majority of interesting discussions moved to some other platform).
>
> There are also bridges from * to IRC. See
> https://web.archive.org/web/20220607072519/https://200ok.ch/posts/2019-11-01_irc_and_emacs_all_the_things.html
> https://wiki.bitlbee.org/
>
>> To avoid a proliferation of IM apps, I get the impression you could use
>> Matrix and get access to many different messaging environments. Is this
>> correct and is the Emacs matrix client mature/stable?
>
> Emacs matrix client is ement.el developed by @alphapapa. It has been
> recently released on GNU ELPA. So, you can see it as stable enough.
>
> However, Matrix protocol itself is not yet stable. Something to keep in
> mind.


OK, thanks. Will check out those links.....

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Would it be okay to
>>
>> 1. replace both "report bug" and "feedback" buttons by a "feedback"
>>    button, pointing to manual https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html ?
>
> I feel like it is good idea to keep both "report bug" and "feedback"
> buttons, even if they point to the same link. 

Done.

I'd also argue that a button with a link to
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/ would be good.

Timothy, what do you think?

Would you be able to provide a svg associated with the idea of "source
code" (or browsing the source code)?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Thanks for your answers.

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

>> In general, Org contributors with push access can fix bugs directly,
>> without announcing this on the mailing list.  But *all other changes*
>> should be submitted and discussed on this mailing list.
>
> Sure. It is always nice to have historical records on why certain
> decisions have been made.

It is not just to be able to keep track of discussions that led to
decisions: it is also to be able to be as *inclusive* as possible.

Of course, time and skills (and other psychological traits) are the
main parameters deciding whether someone can participate to these
discussions: but the more they take place on the mailing list, the
more inclusive they are IMHO.

(I know this opinion is debatable: most <30yo (<35yo) hackers out
there will say that relying on a mailing list for such discussions
wards them off, insisting we should go on GitHub... but *anyone* can
send an email to a list, while only registered GitHub users can open
an issue. We certainly don't want to encourage anyone to register on
GitHub.)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?)

[Bastien]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> One thing I do find frustrating these days is the fracturing of
> communications across so many different solutions.

+100.  

I believe this is real plague for the Free Software movement.

Many projects use Slack, Discord, other unfair services or private IM
applications for "collaboration", while pretending to be inclusive by
just throwing a code of conduct.

I cannot predict the future but I sure hope mailing lists and IRC will
keep being functional for another 50 years (for emails) and 35 years
(for IRC).

I'm glad we have https://list.orgmode.org (thanks to Eric Wong's
https://public-inbox.org/README.html and Kyle's servers) and that
people at SourceHut are putting efforts in making IRC more usable:

https://sourcehut.org/blog/2021-11-29-announcing-the-chat.sr.ht-public-beta/

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

>> Sure. It is always nice to have historical records on why certain
>> decisions have been made.
>
> It is not just to be able to keep track of discussions that led to
> decisions: it is also to be able to be as *inclusive* as possible.
>
> Of course, time and skills (and other psychological traits) are the
> main parameters deciding whether someone can participate to these
> discussions: but the more they take place on the mailing list, the
> more inclusive they are IMHO.
>
> (I know this opinion is debatable: most <30yo (<35yo) hackers out
> there will say that relying on a mailing list for such discussions
> wards them off, insisting we should go on GitHub... but *anyone* can
> send an email to a list, while only registered GitHub users can open
> an issue. We certainly don't want to encourage anyone to register on
> GitHub.)

I do agree that email is the most accessible option from technical
perspective.

However, something being accessible _technically_ does not mean that it
is accessible psychologically. People used to GitHub workflows will be
(and are) reluctant to use email. Not because they can't, but simply
because it requires stepping aside the developed habits (yes, it is how
GitHub and other social platforms catch us [1]).

Familiarity is important. It does not matter if the discussion is done
via mailing list or any other means under the hood. People just want
familiar navigation and front-end logic. Ideally, it would be nice to
have ML front-end that looks similar to GitHub issues. I recall the
latest versions of mailman had somewhat familiar look. Sourcehut is also
trying to implement a web-based front-end (though is it not familiar at
all, unfortunately).

Note that the opposite to the above is not true. We should not prefer
familiar front-ends at the cost of sacrificing technical accessibility.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40672036-digital-minimalism

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Max Nikulin]

On 23/09/2022 00:23, Bastien wrote:
> Max Nikulin writes:
> 
>> The updated page has
>>
>>      alt="Install from ELPA"
>>
>> that likely should be "Install from GNU ELPA".
> 
> Fixed, thanks.
> 
>> However Firefox does not show tooltips (unlike for the Librepay link)
>> when mouse cursor is over new SVG images. I have no idea if
>> screenreaders will use value of the alt attributes.
> 
> I added title="" properties.

"Install from ELPA" without "GNU".

>> I expect that some fraction of messages at this list will have "[BUG]
>> <short description>" subject literally. Perhaps "&body=..." may be
>> added with a template like "Org version: ___, Emacs version: ___" with
>> a note requesting subject more specific to the particular
>> problem. Some people still will not read it.
> 
> Agreed -- I removed this mailto: link as suggestion in a previous
> reply to Tim...

I am not against mailto: link, my intention was to improve message template.

>> An unrelated to the latest changes question. What is the supposed way
>> to reach https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html from site main page
>> (to become aware of M-x `org-submit-bug-report'?
> 
> ... and placed the https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html link as
> the target of the "feedback" svg icon.
> 
> I also added the M-x org-submit-bug-report RET exlpicitely, as it is
> something we want users to discover very soon.

My impression is that this change is against Timothy's attempt to make 
the top banner cleaner. I would consider adding a paragraph with 
org-submit-bug-reports and Feedback.html link close to the "Joining the 
mailing list" section and would make "report bug" badge leading to this 
paragraph. "Feedback" badge link may point to "Joining the mailing list".

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1147 bytes --]

Hi Max,

>> Agreed – I removed this mailto: link as suggestion in a previous
>> reply to Tim…
>
> I am not against mailto: link, my intention was to improve message template.

Looking at <https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html>, that seems like it’s much
better than just a mailto link or `M-x org-submit-bug-report RET' as it gives some
(IMO, rather crucial) surrounding information/instructions.

I think we’d want people to see this, and so I’d actually be inclined to make
the “bug report” button link to this page, and the feedback button just be a
`mailto:' link.

> My impression is that this change is against Timothy’s attempt to make the top
> banner cleaner.

For what it’s worth, I personally consider stuffing lines of “important!” text
into that “what is Org?” banner ultimately counterproductive. I think it fails
to provide the information with enough context (e.g. `M-x org-submit-bug-report
RET' doesn’t provide the information provided on the Feedback.html page), and it
also muddies the structure of the page while making it appear more cluttered.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Tim Cross]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Of course, time and skills (and other psychological traits) are the
> main parameters deciding whether someone can participate to these
> discussions: but the more they take place on the mailing list, the
> more inclusive they are IMHO.
>
> (I know this opinion is debatable: most <30yo (<35yo) hackers out
> there will say that relying on a mailing list for such discussions
> wards them off, insisting we should go on GitHub... but *anyone* can
> send an email to a list, while only registered GitHub users can open
> an issue. We certainly don't want to encourage anyone to register on
> GitHub.)

I observe the same behaviour. My kids (27, 24) both have email accounts,
but only have them and use them for places which insist on an email
address (like government services, universities etc). They use email
only when they have to and check it only when they are expecting a
message. For them, it is IM services (even there, the ones used will
also depend on your age within the <30 - seems to be a trend from FB
messenger, snapchat, discord, whatsapp, tiktok - and even there FB
messenger is probably just to IM with their parents!). From their
perspective, FB is what their parents use and email is what their
grandparents use! No way will they use a mail list.

Of course there are exceptions. You will likely find more young people
who use Emacs and org will also use email more, but I don't know if that
is because the types of people attracted to Emacs and org mode are also
the types of people more attracted to email for comms.

These days, when I want interactive chat, I actually prefer to go with
real chat rather than text based chat. There are so many choices for
voice chat these days, you may as well have real interaction and just
talk! This is where the technology really blows my mind now. A little
while ago, I was collaborating with someone where we were talking using
a voice chat app. It was a bug squashing collaboration where we worked
through a bunch of bugs together and got a heap fixed in a 2 hours
intensive session. I was in Australia and they were in South America AND
travelling on a bus! While there was a couple of instances where we lost
voice comms briefly, it was remarkably successful and it still blows my
mind that I was live coding with someone half way around the world,
travelling on a bus while we coded and chatted in real time! 30 years
ago, we would both need to be in stable locations with land-lines and
IRC would be the most interaction we could hope for - voice definitely
not! 

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3354 bytes --]

Hi Tim,

> I observe the same behaviour. My kids (27, 24) both have email accounts,
> but only have them and use them for places which insist on an email
> address (like government services, universities etc). They use email
> only when they have to and check it only when they are expecting a
> message. For them, it is IM services (even there, the ones used will
> also depend on your age within the <30 - seems to be a trend from FB
> messenger, snapchat, discord, whatsapp, tiktok - and even there FB
> messenger is probably just to IM with their parents!). From their
> perspective, FB is what their parents use and email is what their
> grandparents use! No way will they use a mail list.
>
> Of course there are exceptions. You will likely find more young people
> who use Emacs and org will also use email more, but I don’t know if that
> is because the types of people attracted to Emacs and org mode are also
> the types of people more attracted to email for comms.
>
> These days, when I want interactive chat, I actually prefer to go with
> real chat rather than text based chat. There are so many choices for
> voice chat these days, you may as well have real interaction and just
> talk! This is where the technology really blows my mind now. A little
> while ago, I was collaborating with someone where we were talking using
> a voice chat app. It was a bug squashing collaboration where we worked
> through a bunch of bugs together and got a heap fixed in a 2 hours
> intensive session. I was in Australia and they were in South America AND
> travelling on a bus! While there was a couple of instances where we lost
> voice comms briefly, it was remarkably successful and it still blows my
> mind that I was live coding with someone half way around the world,
> travelling on a bus while we coded and chatted in real time! 30 years
> ago, we would both need to be in stable locations with land-lines and
> IRC would be the most interaction we could hope for - voice definitely
> not!

I find that very interesting to hear. It reminds me that the bcachefs matrix
room (which I hang out in),which has a Jitsi widget. Over there it seems that
occasionally the lead developer and the main other contributor seem to hang out
there while working on the project.

Doing something similar for Org development is an interesting idea. Something
similar probably could be set up with the Org room, or a dedicated Org-dev room
(I’m aware of Bastien’s thoughts on wanting development and help to not be
separated, but while I like the idea of them living in the same space, I’m
personally a big fan of categorisation. For instance, we could make an org-mode
space with a few different rooms: org-dev, org-help, org-showcase, org-chat,
etc.).

With regards to accessibility, I think Matrix is also reaching a rather good
point. The current state of affairs includes an Emacs client, a host of
dedicated apps, in-browser web clients, and more. While the ability to peruse
archives has not yet been developed, it is also possible to copy a link to a
particular message, and so a conversation can be transferred from Matrix to the
ML with a link to the initial conversation, e.g.
<https://matrix.to/#/!rUhEinythPhVTdddsb:matrix.org/$1663983705132172ICPRd:matrix.org>

All the best,
Timothy

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Mark Barton]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1029 bytes --]



> On Sep 23, 2022, at 6:44 PM, Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You will likely find more young people
> who use Emacs and org will also use email more, but I don't know if that
> is because the types of people attracted to Emacs and org mode are also
> the types of people more attracted to email for comms.


My trend has been moving from GUI to the benefit that text based solutions provide: reproducibility, version control, and documentation. 
In my case, email is much easier to extract into my task management system than most IM type solutions. IM is good for short conversations, but really has a problem with organizing more historic data that may be needed for much tougher topics that cannot be answered in a single session. Slack threads really drive me crazy, because I have a hard time finding them again after a day or so. This is where I use DEVONthink to associate different forms of data into the related projects and use DEVONthink links in org mode for my notes and task management.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4022 bytes --]

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Ihor Radchenko]

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

>> My impression is that this change is against Timothy’s attempt to make the top
>> banner cleaner.
>
> For what it’s worth, I personally consider stuffing lines of “important!” text
> into that “what is Org?” banner ultimately counterproductive. I think it fails
> to provide the information with enough context (e.g. `M-x org-submit-bug-report
> RET' doesn’t provide the information provided on the Feedback.html page), and it
> also muddies the structure of the page while making it appear more cluttered.

I am slightly in favour of reducing the clutter.

Also, Bastien mentioned (AFAIU) an idea to have a badge for source
code. Maybe instead of git clone? I was previously reluctant to use
savannah link instead of copy-pasteable "git clone ..." text, but I now
notice that https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/ works
with git clone and the page even lists tarballs for the Org releases.

So, we may create a badge with an icon representing src code (maybe
"</> | source code"?) that will point to
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Max,

Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> writes:

> "Install from ELPA" without "GNU".

Fixed, thanks.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> I find that very interesting to hear. It reminds me that the bcachefs matrix
> room (which I hang out in),which has a Jitsi widget. Over there it seems that
> occasionally the lead developer and the main other contributor seem to hang out
> there while working on the project.
>
> Doing something similar for Org development is an interesting idea. Something
> similar probably could be set up with the Org room, or a dedicated Org-dev room

This may be interesting, but it requires at least two participants to
get the discussion going.

> (I’m aware of Bastien’s thoughts on wanting development and help to not be
> separated, but while I like the idea of them living in the same space, I’m
> personally a big fan of categorisation. For instance, we could make an org-mode
> space with a few different rooms: org-dev, org-help, org-showcase, org-chat,
> etc.).

Is there is possibility to merge multiple rooms in Matrix/IRC?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Timothy,

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> I think we’d want people to see this, and so I’d actually be inclined to make
> the “bug report” button link to this page, and the feedback button just be a
> `mailto:' link.

Done!

> For what it’s worth, I personally consider stuffing lines of “important!” text
> into that “what is Org?” banner ultimately counterproductive. I think it fails
> to provide the information with enough context (e.g. `M-x org-submit-bug-report
> RET' doesn’t provide the information provided on the Feedback.html page), and it
> also muddies the structure of the page while making it appear more cluttered.

IMHO if someone with UX/UI experience can/wants to interview real Org
newcomers, that will help us a lot for deciding about such tiny changes.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Mark Barton <mbarton98@gmail.com> writes:

>> You will likely find more young people
>> who use Emacs and org will also use email more, but I don't know if that
>> is because the types of people attracted to Emacs and org mode are also
>> the types of people more attracted to email for comms.
>
>
> My trend has been moving from GUI to the benefit that text based solutions provide: reproducibility, version control, and documentation. 
> In my case, email is much easier to extract into my task management system than most IM type solutions. IM is good for short conversations, but really has a problem with organizing more historic data that may be needed for much tougher topics that cannot be answered in a single session. Slack threads really drive me crazy, because I have a hard time finding them again after a day or so. This is where I use DEVONthink to associate different forms of data into the related projects and use DEVONthink links in org mode for my notes and task management.

Come on. We are talking about Org mode and Emacs.
Just load ol-irc.el and enjoy links to past conversations ;)
Matrix client for Org will likely have Org link support in future as
well.

And yes, you can bridge Slack to IRC/Matrix.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 912 bytes --]

Hi Bastien,

> IMHO if someone with UX/UI experience can/wants to interview real Org
> newcomers, that will help us a lot for deciding about such tiny changes.

Unfortunately, it can be quite hard to find such people on the ML etc. (funny
about that 😛).

For what it’s worth, when doing the original website re-design I went to some
effort to get the thoughts of people who don’t use Org to make sure it did a
decent job communicating the essentials.

With regards to the current banner, I’m inclined to remove the report bug text:
having that as well as the badge-link is simply confusing, and the badge-link to
the feedback page is better.

We can also add a source code badge using the git icon and linking to
<https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/>, and I’d then be inclined
to remove the “Repository …” text for similar reasons.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2022-09-21 11:15]:
> The disadvantage of IRC is absence of message history.
> Without history, small-sized channels like I am proposing (dedicated to
> Org mode devs) are not very useful. We live in different time zones and
> countries.

From Org master view point, every message shall be
referencable to be usable for future as part of the knowledge
base.

E-mails are very referencable, and mailing list too.

For IRC, there are ways to record history, and I am sure that
such history may be recorded with referencable hyperlinks.

Look at this example from Guix IRC channel:
https://logs.guix.gnu.org/

It is irrelevant and also natural that we are in different
time zones and countries. System administrator may decide the
reference time zone.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Jean Louis]

* Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> [2022-09-24 05:10]:
> messenger is probably just to IM with their parents!). From their
> perspective, FB is what their parents use and email is what their
> grandparents use! No way will they use a mail list.

That may be the trend within a generation.

Though there are interest groups and when interest is high
enough, people will open email to enter into the group.

That was the reason to open up those other communication lines
- the interest.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> For IRC, there are ways to record history, and I am sure that
> such history may be recorded with referencable hyperlinks.
>
> Look at this example from Guix IRC channel:
> https://logs.guix.gnu.org/

AFAIU, this should be supported by the IRC server. Does irc.libera.chat
(where #org-mode channel is hosted) support logging?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 566 bytes --]

Hi Ihor,

> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
>> For IRC, there are ways to record history, and I am sure that
>> such history may be recorded with referencable hyperlinks.
>>
>> Look at this example from Guix IRC channel:
>> <https://logs.guix.gnu.org/>
>
> AFAIU, this should be supported by the IRC server. Does irc.libera.chat
> (where #org-mode channel is hosted) support logging?

On this note, I’ve recently discovered
<https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-public-archive> which looks rather promising
to me.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Timothy,

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

>> IMHO if someone with UX/UI experience can/wants to interview real Org
>> newcomers, that will help us a lot for deciding about such tiny changes.
>
> Unfortunately, it can be quite hard to find such people on the ML etc. (funny
> about that 😛).

I'm copying Eduardo who volunteered in the past for this kind of work.

> For what it’s worth, when doing the original website re-design I went to some
> effort to get the thoughts of people who don’t use Org to make sure it did a
> decent job communicating the essentials.

Definitely an ingredient of why your work improved the situation a lot!

> With regards to the current banner, I’m inclined to remove the report bug text:
> having that as well as the badge-link is simply confusing, and the badge-link to
> the feedback page is better.

> We can also add a source code badge using the git icon and linking to
> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/>, and I’d then be inclined
> to remove the “Repository …” text for similar reasons.

I'd definitely love to get more feedback on this: I don't think the
current banner is *that* cluttered, and the info about the repo and
the way to send bug reports seems really useful - but perhaps that's
just me.

Please go ahead with what seems better to you (especially since it
matches Ihor's preferences too), but if Eduardo has some time to help,
it be great to really stabilize what kind of info is expected on this
banner.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> So, we may create a badge with an icon representing src code (maybe
> "</> | source code"?) that will point to
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/

+1

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> FB is what their parents use and email is what their
> grandparents use!

So true, but quite painful to read on a mailing list ;)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Hi Timothy,

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> Doing something similar for Org development is an interesting idea. Something
> similar probably could be set up with the Org room, or a dedicated Org-dev room
> (I’m aware of Bastien’s thoughts on wanting development and help to not be
> separated, but while I like the idea of them living in the same space, I’m
> personally a big fan of categorisation. For instance, we could make an org-mode
> space with a few different rooms: org-dev, org-help, org-showcase, org-chat,
> etc.).

I'm all for places where people can freely discuss anything related to
Org.  There are already many such places: #org-mode and #org-mode-fr
on IRC, r/org-mode on reddit.com, stackoverflow.com, etc.

I don't want development decisions to be taken in such places---that I
think we all agree upon.

Based on that, I don't want a separated IRC channel or a Matrix room
to be promoted (de facto, by its name) as the place for "contributing
to Org's development": #org-dev or a dedicated Matrix room would sound
like this to newcomers.  #orgmode is the IM complement of the mailing
list: a place where Orgers discuss.  On top of that, the ML is the
place where to suggest patches.

I think I get your point about categorisation in general, but in this
case, there is the risk of excluding a category of people (lurkers,
occasional contributors, etc.) or more precisely: to incidently and
inadvertently encourage them to self-exclude themselves.

> With regards to accessibility, I think Matrix is also reaching a rather good
> point. 

Is it possible to lurk in a Matrix room without any login?

The same way you can send an email to the mailing list without being a
subscriber (vs opening a GitHub issue without having a GitHub account)
you can lurk in #org-mode without having a registered account on the
IRC server, which is good.

> The current state of affairs includes an Emacs client, a host of
> dedicated apps, in-browser web clients, and more. While the ability to peruse
> archives has not yet been developed, it is also possible to copy a link to a
> particular message, and so a conversation can be transferred from Matrix to the
> ML with a link to the initial conversation, e.g.
> <https://matrix.to/#/!rUhEinythPhVTdddsb:matrix.org/$1663983705132172ICPRd:matrix.org>

It's good to be able to connect to Matrix via Emacs: I will try this
myself soon.  

All best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2569 bytes --]

Hi Bastien,

> I’m all for places where people can freely discuss anything related to
> Org.  There are already many such places: #org-mode and #org-mode-fr
> on IRC, r/org-mode on reddit.com, stackoverflow.com, etc.

Yep, but I do think it’s good to have a few promoted places, ideally based on
FOSS services. Not to start another tangent, but this is one of the reasons why
I think discourse could be a good idea — as a FOSS replacement for reddit,
stackoverflow, etc.

> I don’t want development decisions to be taken in such places—that I
> think we all agree upon.

Sounds like we’re on the same page.

> Based on that, I don’t want a separated IRC channel or a Matrix room
> to be promoted (de facto, by its name) as the place for “contributing
> to Org’s development”: #org-dev or a dedicated Matrix room would sound
> like this to newcomers.  #orgmode is the IM complement of the mailing
> list: a place where Orgers discuss.  On top of that, the ML is the
> place where to suggest patches.

Mmm, it doesn’t have the same role or supplant the ML.

> I think I get your point about categorisation in general, but in this
> case, there is the risk of excluding a category of people (lurkers,
> occasional contributors, etc.) or more precisely: to incidently and
> inadvertently encourage them to self-exclude themselves.

I hear what you’re saying, I’m just not sure how much of an issue this actually
would be. My initial suspicion is with a this issue would be small to
non-existent.

>> With regards to accessibility, I think Matrix is also reaching a rather good
>> point.
>
> Is it possible to lurk in a Matrix room without any login?

With a matrix client you can peek in public rooms without joining them, and
<https://view.matrix.org/room/%21rUhEinythPhVTdddsb:matrix.org/> currently exists.

>> The current state of affairs includes an Emacs client, a host of
>> dedicated apps, in-browser web clients, and more. While the ability to peruse
>> archives has not yet been developed, it is also possible to copy a link to a
>> particular message, and so a conversation can be transferred from Matrix to the
>> ML with a link to the initial conversation, e.g.
>> <https://matrix.to/#/!rUhEinythPhVTdddsb:matrix.org/$1663983705132172ICPRd:matrix.org>
>
> It’s good to be able to connect to Matrix via Emacs: I will try this
> myself soon.

I haven’t tried this myself yet, but it sounds quite promising! I’d be
interested to hear how you find it.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> FB is what their parents use and email is what their
>> grandparents use!
>
> So true, but quite painful to read on a mailing list ;)

Then how should Timothy feel? :)

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Familiarity is important. 

I agree with all what you said.

> Ideally, it would be nice to
> have ML front-end that looks similar to GitHub issues. I recall the
> latest versions of mailman had somewhat familiar look. Sourcehut is also
> trying to implement a web-based front-end (though is it not familiar at
> all, unfortunately).

Note that if the GNU project moves to using its instance of sourcehut,
then we will also benefit from such a web-based front-end.

> Note that the opposite to the above is not true. We should not prefer
> familiar front-ends at the cost of sacrificing technical accessibility.

Agreed again.

Another parameter I put in the equation: what do we want?

If our priority were to redirect reports made on r/org-mode and SO to
the Org maintainers, then switching to GitHub would probably be a good
move: users that feel comfortable sharing reports and ideas on these
platforms would create more issues on GitHub than emails we currently
receive on the list.

I believe our priority should be to motivate more Elisp hackers to
become Org maintainers.  I expect potential candidates to be okay with
the GNU recommendation of trying to avoid GitHub for ethical reasons
and to be fine with working by email, the old way.  Especially if we
have maintainers for small files: they certainly don't want to follow
everything in Org's development but agree to be cc'ed occasionally.

2 cts,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1071 bytes --]

Hi Bastien,

Just one quick comment on a certain part of your email.

> I expect potential candidates to be okay with the GNU recommendation of trying
> to avoid GitHub for ethical reasons and to be fine with working by email, the
> old way.

Both these things may not come together, or at the same time. For instance, I’m
currently talking to someone on the Doom discord who has a few potential
improvement to Org in the works, and the main barrier to us hearing about them
is their nervousness at sending an email in to the Org ML.

Like it or not, I have the distinct impression that
> to be fine with working by email, the old way.
is a much greater ask than it used to be. Some people may come around with time,
but for getting started at least I think there’s quite a bit of value in having
less “alien” way of getting started. One could argue that by neglecting
non-ML/IRC ways of interacting with the Org project we are accidentally seceding
territory to non-free services like reddit, stackexchange, and co.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Fraga, Eric]

On Sunday, 25 Sep 2022 at 18:53, Timothy wrote:
>> It’s good to be able to connect to Matrix via Emacs: I will try this
>> myself soon.
>
> I haven’t tried this myself yet, but it sounds quite promising! I’d be
> interested to hear how you find it.

(ement.el) Working quite well.  Rapid development in progress by
@alphapapa but already very usable.  Much better than IRC in that you
don't miss anything if you drop your connection.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga, with org release_9.5.5-815-gae2140 in Emacs 29.0.50

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Russell Adams]

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 11:36:46AM +0800, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
> > For IRC, there are ways to record history, and I am sure that
> > such history may be recorded with referencable hyperlinks.
> >
> > Look at this example from Guix IRC channel:
> > https://logs.guix.gnu.org/
>
> AFAIU, this should be supported by the IRC server. Does irc.libera.chat
> (where #org-mode channel is hosted) support logging?

There is no log today.

Also our parent channel #emacs prohibits logging.

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsChannelLogging

Logging sounds nice until anyone can datamine it. You're welcome to
log locally on your client for private use.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
                                    https://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 282 bytes --]

Hi Bastien,

> Please go ahead with what seems better to you (especially since it
> matches Ihor’s preferences too), but if Eduardo has some time to help,
> it be great to really stabilize what kind of info is expected on this
> banner.

Done :)

All the best,
Timothy

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[zimoun]

Hi,

On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 at 11:36, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Look at this example from Guix IRC channel:
>> https://logs.guix.gnu.org/
>
> AFAIU, this should be supported by the IRC server. Does irc.libera.chat
> (where #org-mode channel is hosted) support logging?

These logs are done by custom Scheme code [1,2] run in some Guix
project’s server [3].


1: <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/maintenance.git/tree/hydra/goggles-bot.scm>
2: <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/maintenance.git/tree/hydra/goggles.scm>
3: <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/maintenance.git/tree/hydra/bayfront.scm>


Cheers,
simon

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

>> Ideally, it would be nice to
>> have ML front-end that looks similar to GitHub issues. I recall the
>> latest versions of mailman had somewhat familiar look. Sourcehut is also
>> trying to implement a web-based front-end (though is it not familiar at
>> all, unfortunately).
>
> Note that if the GNU project moves to using its instance of sourcehut,
> then we will also benefit from such a web-based front-end.

Yes. However, despite being web-based, Sourhut's frontend is not
intuitive at all. I also heard that the frontend accessibility is not
something they plan to improve upon much. See https://cadence.moe/blog/2022-07-03-git-forge-opinions-github-gitlab-gitea-sourcehut

>> Note that the opposite to the above is not true. We should not prefer
>> familiar front-ends at the cost of sacrificing technical accessibility.
>
> Agreed again.
>
> Another parameter I put in the equation: what do we want?
>
> If our priority were to redirect reports made on r/org-mode and SO to
> the Org maintainers, then switching to GitHub would probably be a good
> move: users that feel comfortable sharing reports and ideas on these
> platforms would create more issues on GitHub than emails we currently
> receive on the list.

I did a little experiment over last month by directing reddit users to
Org ML. When asked, a substantial fraction of people actually did post
to Org ML. My impression is that people first reach out to "casual"
resources like reddit because they are afraid to bother "hardcore" Org
developers on the mailing list with they humble little issues.

Maybe we can nicely ask moderators/active users of reddit/SO to redirect
people to Org ML when appropriate? Similar to our current effort with
contributor stewards.

> I believe our priority should be to motivate more Elisp hackers to
> become Org maintainers.  I expect potential candidates to be okay with
> the GNU recommendation of trying to avoid GitHub for ethical reasons
> and to be fine with working by email, the old way.  Especially if we
> have maintainers for small files: they certainly don't want to follow
> everything in Org's development but agree to be cc'ed occasionally.

I think you are missing one important category of contributors --
maintainers of third-party packages. I've got involved into several
Org-related discussions on Github because I got @mentioned in some
threads. My impression is that a number of package maintainers on Github
actively cross-link issues between repos and try to resolve problems
together. However, they rarely reach out to Org ML.

Notably, I managed to communicate on GitHub simply using email.

May we set a single account on GitHub and link it to Org ML so that
people can @mention Org team on GitHub, and we automatically get the
email directly to Org ML? Note that I do not suggest maintaining Org
mirror with its issues page. Just a user.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:

>> AFAIU, this should be supported by the IRC server. Does irc.libera.chat
>> (where #org-mode channel is hosted) support logging?
>
> There is no log today.
>
> Also our parent channel #emacs prohibits logging.
>
> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsChannelLogging

Does #org-mode share such a strong stand?
If so, it may be problematic even to quote the discussions there in Org
commit messages.
IMHO, it makes #org-mode a lot less usable for the purposes of Org
development. Deliberately public and unencrypted matrix #org-mode room
is better in this regard.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Hi Timothy,

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> Yep, but I do think it’s good to have a few promoted places, ideally based on
> FOSS services. Not to start another tangent, but this is one of the reasons why
> I think discourse could be a good idea — as a FOSS replacement for reddit,
> stackoverflow, etc.

If someone wants to set up a Discourse instance and maintain it, of
course (s)he can.  The question is: should this become an *official*
place for Org discussions, maintained by Org maintainers?  I don't
think this is desirable, given the resources we have*.

It is sooooo easy to set up a Discourse instance and quite difficult
to maintain it in the long run -- also, how to explain to newcomers
when to send messages to Discourse and when to reach the list?  This
will probably end up as "a place for users" (Discourse) and "a place
for developers" (the ML), which I don't want.

* FWIW I would much prefer to have contributors commit to enhance
  Worg: it is a critical resource, seen by ~30K per month, and many
  pages are outdated.

>> I think I get your point about categorisation in general, but in this
>> case, there is the risk of excluding a category of people (lurkers,
>> occasional contributors, etc.) or more precisely: to incidently and
>> inadvertently encourage them to self-exclude themselves.
>
> I hear what you’re saying, I’m just not sure how much of an issue this actually
> would be. My initial suspicion is with a this issue would be small to
> non-existent.

Perhaps -- or perhaps not.  What Ihor says in another email is that
people who post on e.g. reddit don't want to bother hardcore devs on
this list.  I'm quite sure if we setup an official #org-dev channel,
people from #org-mode will shy away from #org-dev.

>> Is it possible to lurk in a Matrix room without any login?
>
> With a matrix client you can peek in public rooms without joining them, and
> <https://view.matrix.org/room/%21rUhEinythPhVTdddsb:matrix.org/> currently exists.

This link does not allow me to send an anonymous/pseudonymous message
to the Matrix room, right?  That's what I'm talking about, that IRC
permits.

All best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Hi Timothy,

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> Both these things may not come together, or at the same time. For instance, I’m
> currently talking to someone on the Doom discord who has a few potential
> improvement to Org in the works, and the main barrier to us hearing about them
> is their nervousness at sending an email in to the Org ML.

We probably can reassure them and teach them how not to be afraid to
go public and send an email to this list.

> Like it or not, I have the distinct impression that
>> to be fine with working by email, the old way.
> is a much greater ask than it used to be. Some people may come around with time,
> but for getting started at least I think there’s quite a bit of value in having
> less “alien” way of getting started. One could argue that by neglecting
> non-ML/IRC ways of interacting with the Org project we are accidentally seceding
> territory to non-free services like reddit, stackexchange, and co.

Let's imagine we set up a Discourse instance on forum.orgmode.org.

It will probably attract users that don't really like/want to interact
through a mailing list, and maybe some of them will prefer this option
rather than posting to reddit, SO, etc.

It is a good outcome per se, and a way not to cede too much territory
to non-free services.

But then at some point we will have two problems: we will need to
spend energy encouraging these Discourse users send their patches to
the mailing list and people on this ML who are mostly here to help
others will have to split their time and attention between the ML and
forum.orgmode.org, because both will be official support channels
for the Org community.

To sum it up (1) I don't think we have the resources to compete with
non-free services like reddit (and should accept that they work as
users-to-users support channels) and (2) teaching users how to send a
patch to the mailing list is something we will have to do anyway at
some point if we want to help users become contributors.

So I really see why a Discourse instance might be tempting but this
will surely break something that works okay right now: this list as
the place where to keep track of Org's development and contribute
to it.

...

For french-speaking people, we have both a ML and a forum.

- the list: https://lists.sr.ht/~bzg/emacsfr
- the forum: https://emacs.gnu.re/public/

We advertize both equally on https://emacs-doctor.com.

It is okay to have both here because they are not competing with each
other, they are just places for discussing things.

Interestingly, the ML seems more active than the forum, but I would
not mind seeing the forum become more active than the list.  They are
just places to discuss Org topics in french.

The difference with considering list.orgmode.org + forum.orgmode.org
is that none of these places (FR-ML and FR-forum) is "the place were
we keep track of Org's development and where we encourage and teach
people how to contribute"... that's what matters in this discussion.

All best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> Done :)

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Hi Ihor,

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Maybe we can nicely ask moderators/active users of reddit/SO to redirect
> people to Org ML when appropriate? Similar to our current effort with
> contributor stewards.

That's a very good idea!

If these contributor stewards agree, we can even advertise their role
on https://orgmode.org/worg/org-maintenance.html

> I think you are missing one important category of contributors --
> maintainers of third-party packages. I've got involved into several
> Org-related discussions on Github because I got @mentioned in some
> threads. My impression is that a number of package maintainers on Github
> actively cross-link issues between repos and try to resolve problems
> together. However, they rarely reach out to Org ML.

True that.

> Notably, I managed to communicate on GitHub simply using email.

I too.

> May we set a single account on GitHub and link it to Org ML so that
> people can @mention Org team on GitHub, and we automatically get the
> email directly to Org ML?

I'm against it: it will make it easier for Org ecosystem maintainers
on GitHub to send notifications to the Org ML without joining it while
probably forcing Org maintainers on the ML to follow-up discussions on
GitHub.  That's not a positive outcome.

What I suggest instead to do is to document GitHub accounts of Org
core maintainers on worg/org-maintenance.org for those who have one.

This way maintainers of Org libraries on GitHub will know they can @
these accounts in their issues.  And it will stay the responsability
of Org core maintainers to decide how to deal with these issues.

For some of them, it will just lead to a reply on the issue (as when
Org maintainers contribute to non-official Org spaces, like the Doom
or spacemacs discord servers); for issues that are of importance for
Org core development, we should suggest them to send an email to the
list.

WDYT?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Does #org-mode share such a strong stand?

I don't know.  People in charge of the #org-mode channel should decide.

I'm fine with Org referring to #org-mode in both cases.

> If so, it may be problematic even to quote the discussions there in Org
> commit messages.
> IMHO, it makes #org-mode a lot less usable for the purposes of Org
> development. Deliberately public and unencrypted matrix #org-mode room
> is better in this regard.

Our commit messages should only refer to public archives of the Org
mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/ or
https://list.orgmode.org). 

If a discussion on #org-mode or a GitHub repository is relevant for
Org development, it has to be referred to in a thread on the list,
which we can then be quoted for context in the commit message.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Eduardo Mercovich]

Hello Bastien! So long... :)

Pleasure to meet you Timothy. :)

>>> IMHO if someone with UX/UI experience can/wants to interview real Org
>>> newcomers, that will help us a lot for deciding about such tiny changes.

>> Unfortunately, it can be quite hard to find such people on the ML etc. (funny
>> about that 😛).

> I'm copying Eduardo who volunteered in the past for this kind of work.

I would love to do this, maybe we can plan a bit for it... 

>> For what it’s worth, when doing the original website re-design I went to some
>> effort to get the thoughts of people who don’t use Org to make sure it did a
>> decent job communicating the essentials.

> Definitely an ingredient of why your work improved the situation a lot!

Absolutely so! Congratulation and much thanks for your work with the
website. :)

Going back to think about some user testing, we should talk a bit about
the test objectives to determine the sample screening, starting context
and tasks...

I'll continue with the threads.


-- 
eduardo mercovich

 Donde se cruzan tus talentos 
 con las necesidades del mundo, 
 ahí está tu vocación. 
 (Anónimo)

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Maybe we can nicely ask moderators/active users of reddit/SO to redirect
>> people to Org ML when appropriate? Similar to our current effort with
>> contributor stewards.
>
> That's a very good idea!
>
> If these contributor stewards agree, we can even advertise their role
> on https://orgmode.org/worg/org-maintenance.html

Agree.

Which social website do you have in mind?

I can ask @alphapapa from /r/orgmode.

I guess we can also ask people hanging out on Doom discord and
discourse.

Maybe also Org roam people. They have discourse.

>> May we set a single account on GitHub and link it to Org ML so that
>> people can @mention Org team on GitHub, and we automatically get the
>> email directly to Org ML?
>
> I'm against it: it will make it easier for Org ecosystem maintainers
> on GitHub to send notifications to the Org ML without joining it while
> probably forcing Org maintainers on the ML to follow-up discussions on
> GitHub.  That's not a positive outcome.

Fair point. GitHub email never displays comment edits, and I am not sure
how reliable is Github-to-email bridge for complex interactions.

> What I suggest instead to do is to document GitHub accounts of Org
> core maintainers on worg/org-maintenance.org for those who have one.

This sounds reasonable.

> This way maintainers of Org libraries on GitHub will know they can @
> these accounts in their issues.  And it will stay the responsability
> of Org core maintainers to decide how to deal with these issues.
>
> For some of them, it will just lead to a reply on the issue (as when
> Org maintainers contribute to non-official Org spaces, like the Doom
> or spacemacs discord servers); for issues that are of importance for
> Org core development, we should suggest them to send an email to the
> list.

I am unsure how visible this kind of information will be for new
third-party package maintainers.

Should we add some information to Appendix A Hacking section of the
manual? (something along the lines that one may contact Org maintainers
in other media like IRC, Matrix, etc and then link to worg/org-maintenance.org)

Or maybe have a section in worg/org-contribute.org? An extension to
"Write add-ons" item.

And, of course, we need to announce this to the existing maintainers.
Upcoming Emacsconf may be a good opportunity.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Our commit messages should only refer to public archives of the Org
> mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/ or
> https://list.orgmode.org). 
>
> If a discussion on #org-mode or a GitHub repository is relevant for
> Org development, it has to be referred to in a thread on the list,
> which we can then be quoted for context in the commit message.

Do note that I sometimes referred to reddit/SO questions in patches.
Should we avoid this? If so, should this convention be added to
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Do note that I sometimes referred to reddit/SO questions in patches.
> Should we avoid this? 

Yes.  If someone reports a bug on reddit/SO/X we should encourage
her/him to fill it on the list.  If he/she doesn't, we should fill it
ourselve there for the record, adding the reddit/SO/X link in the
email, and mention that email in the commit message.

> If so, should this convention be added to
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html?

Yes, I added this on Worg as commit 1b5a8177.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Which social website do you have in mind?
>
> I can ask @alphapapa from /r/orgmode.
>
> I guess we can also ask people hanging out on Doom discord and
> discourse.
>
> Maybe also Org roam people. They have discourse.

I'm short of additional ideas.  This is a good start already!

If they are willing to become contributors stewards on these places, I
suggest we advertize this on worg/org-maintenance.org in a new section
dedicated to contributor stewards.

> I am unsure how visible this kind of information will be for new
> third-party package maintainers.
>
> Should we add some information to Appendix A Hacking section of the
> manual? (something along the lines that one may contact Org maintainers
> in other media like IRC, Matrix, etc and then link to
> worg/org-maintenance.org)

I added a "Web presence of maintainers" section in
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-maintenance.html right after the first
one - please go ahead with adding relevant information.

I think this is really "community" information, not something that
pertains to the manual.

> And, of course, we need to announce this to the existing maintainers.
> Upcoming Emacsconf may be a good opportunity.

We could also have an informal OrgConf as a one day gathering online
for bug squashing and discussing community topics like this one.  :)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Eduardo,

Eduardo Mercovich <eduardo@mercovich.net> writes:

> Going back to think about some user testing, we should talk a bit about
> the test objectives to determine the sample screening, starting context
> and tasks...

Here are a the two main goals I see for https://orgmode.org:

- Answer the 3 top questions newbies ask themselves about Org.

- Answer the 3 top questions willing contributors ask themselves on
  how to contribute.

But you'll probably have many more ideas on how to use this space
effectively.  Perhaps you can discuss this off-list with Timothy and
come back with a plan (depending on the time/energy you both have for
this, of course)?

Let us know how it goes!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: IM dev discussions?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

>> Which social website do you have in mind?
>>
>> I can ask @alphapapa from /r/orgmode.
>>
>> I guess we can also ask people hanging out on Doom discord and
>> discourse.
>>
>> Maybe also Org roam people. They have discourse.
>
> I'm short of additional ideas.  This is a good start already!
>
> If they are willing to become contributors stewards on these places, I
> suggest we advertize this on worg/org-maintenance.org in a new section
> dedicated to contributor stewards.

Can we also post a dedicated announcement to be displayed at
updates.orgmode.org?

>> I am unsure how visible this kind of information will be for new
>> third-party package maintainers.
>>
>> Should we add some information to Appendix A Hacking section of the
>> manual? (something along the lines that one may contact Org maintainers
>> in other media like IRC, Matrix, etc and then link to
>> worg/org-maintenance.org)
>
> I added a "Web presence of maintainers" section in
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-maintenance.html right after the first
> one - please go ahead with adding relevant information.
>
> I think this is really "community" information, not something that
> pertains to the manual.

Thanks!
I added myself.

>> And, of course, we need to announce this to the existing maintainers.
>> Upcoming Emacsconf may be a good opportunity.
>
> We could also have an informal OrgConf as a one day gathering online
> for bug squashing and discussing community topics like this one.  :)

This is a good idea. In particular, for technical questions.
Also, we may invite third-party package developers, though I may be
asking for too much here.

However, EmacsConf might be best for communicating the ordinary users:
- Discourse idea
- New releases (think of https://emacsconf.org/2021/talks/dev-update/)
- Major announcements like new repositories; sr.ht projects; calls for
  maintenance and other help; etc

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92