From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn?= Bidar Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs design and architecture Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 17:20:16 +0300 Message-ID: <87a5tmp5cv.fsf@thaodan.de> References: <83cyynpmvd.fsf@gnu.org> <838r99mh40.fsf@gnu.org> <83h6nwlmt4.fsf@gnu.org> <456d12ac-ecf4-3de4-56bb-a2440580777f@gutov.dev> <83a5tokmsv.fsf@gnu.org> <83sf7fki5g.fsf@gnu.org> <43d642a8-d1b4-05ed-41e0-6e52d22df2d4@gutov.dev> <83edizjn0v.fsf@gnu.org> <0518f65b-1dd1-6923-8497-da4d3aeac631@gutov.dev> <1cff05f8-df80-b776-5175-dd27a6e59799@gutov.dev> <87wmwqiax9.fsf@whxvd.name> <87a5tmz319.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15645"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Sebastian Miele , Dmitry Gutov , Gerd =?utf-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= , Eli Zaretskii , yuri.v.khan@gmail.com, owinebar@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 16 16:21:42 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qhWB3-0003sQ-S4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 16 Sep 2023 16:21:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qhW9n-0000ju-Tg; Sat, 16 Sep 2023 10:20:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qhW9m-0000jj-9N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 Sep 2023 10:20:22 -0400 Original-Received: from thaodan.de ([185.216.177.71]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qhW9k-0000QA-8C; Sat, 16 Sep 2023 10:20:22 -0400 Original-Received: from odin (dsl-trebng12-50dc77-87.dhcp.inet.fi [80.220.119.87]) by thaodan.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 06C35D08DB9; Sat, 16 Sep 2023 17:20:16 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=thaodan.de; s=mail; t=1694874017; bh=hoCQTe0sWKRoYmERG2nEYSZtdK8SyjMz2kW5aeRWOaI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=gRFVFYZcijy87/M5LtlLaK5pdVcQ/nR/9YwLZ8mNCeOLrN/yuJdDkxn8PkgnDpAa8 pzQGFxfBxPAJmSQv3EpG+otYZHE5abEesegC2NV3sn7k7X4i0ECyf8jfOpUQK6uAgr KufDmfB4e4UpIQR7XpDt8VrE94PnPyEsLxqsGRuPMu3pLrDX2D/FuKV99+femklfXV Mcvx43SqebQ2Lp8/IW5U2fS8R9m4umz98TGkf6jOPqRwK+YWXvCwFiGEP7JGrXGGO7 Xj7eaMsliH+yvd3QwdI2KAfwxBPtM1mrC+YPFZFbMKGmJaW/QRh5YUKEaRmhu3ig+h Ere+tTc3g7v2k0AabQmmg59+5TNYdr35GkbNGaJs7kxK8C9/kMlaaoO1uEyYYLEc3i WvVeKXWKOdSsqKiUgeXrb2qD4MXpMLp/G2BA6CHS7Zhf44IeHXY71vYN8xyoo1Ez2+ nHHBh/6bOblDC+EEgudOvtMJlZ7TXagsXulOzpuwsOkVn/UN2r9W5N6TNtRfOD4ohQ ClHP3NpQYQE/fu2OaJPIZGvE6jGAVy3WI//3zfi/ipTNQ0pUNWyQTnh2fSMxwwb3Xw CMvKYSidUJ4lf8ZUrKKrjigA/YAlAnQ3euN5rGTaajnhWH+Mva5mja59a/wzbPS551 H4ExS2VC7n2rB7O7zB9vzZhs= In-Reply-To: <87a5tmz319.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Sat, 16 Sep 2023 21:00:18 +0800") Autocrypt: addr=bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de; prefer-encrypt=nopreference; keydata= mDMEZNfpPhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdACBEmr+0xwIIHZfIDlZmm7sa+lHHSb0g9FZrN6qE6ru60JUJq w7ZybiBCaWRhciA8Ympvcm4uYmlkYXJAdGhhb2Rhbi5kZT6IlgQTFgoAPgIbAwULCQgHAgIiAgYV CgkICwIEFgIDAQIeBwIXgBYhBFHxdut1RzAepymoq1wbdKFlHF9oBQJk1/YmAhkBAAoJEFwbdKFl HF9oB9cBAJoIIGQKXm4cpap+Flxc/EGnYl0123lcEyzuduqvlDT0AQC3OlFKm/OiqJ8IMTrzJRZ8 phFssTkSrrFXnM2jm5PYDoiTBBMWCgA7FiEEUfF263VHMB6nKairXBt0oWUcX2gFAmTX6T4CGwMF CwkIBwICIgIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgcCF4AACgkQXBt0oWUcX2hbCQEAtru7kvM8hi8zo6z9ux2h K+B5xViKuo7Z8K3IXuK5ugwA+wUfKzomzdBPhfxDsqLcEziGRxoyx0Q3ld9aermBUccHtBxCasO2 cm4gQmlkYXIgPG1lQHRoYW9kYW4uZGU+iJMEExYKADsCGwMFCwkIBwICIgIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwEC HgcCF4AWIQRR8XbrdUcwHqcpqKtcG3ShZRxfaAUCZNf2FQAKCRBcG3ShZRxfaCzSAP4hZ7cSp0YN XYpcjHdsySh2MuBhhoPeLGXs+2kSiqBiOwD/TP8AgPEg/R+SI9GI9on7fBJJ0mp2IT8kZ2rhDOjg gA6IkwQTFgoAOxYhBFHxdut1RzAepymoq1wbdKFlH Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.216.177.71; envelope-from=bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de; helo=thaodan.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310628 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Sebastian Miele writes: > >> In the foreseeable future, probably not. I do not know the details. >> But there is WebAssembly. In order to access the DOM and possibly other >> browser API, at least a few months ago, it was still necessary to >> somehow go through JS. But it is very unlikely that that will not >> change in a not too distant future. There are many developements going >> on in that area that (will) make implementing further languages on top >> of WebAssembly easier and the languages and APIs interoperable with less >> and less overhead, and more and more common management (including GC). >> I have only a very superficial view. But in the last months I gained >> the impression, that WebAssembly and standards and stuff around it >> probably will become a very versatile and interoperable VM >> infrastracture, including "WebAssamble-native" APIs to almost anything. >> >> What may be interesting in that direction, too, are experimental browser >> engines like Servo. In the last months I read somewhere (and by people >> contributing to it) that Servo more or less explicitly has the aim to >> allow to take/use only parts of it, and to have as clear and >> approachable source code as possible. A next generation Emacs probably >> would not need or even want all that a web browser has to support. It >> could concentrate on a subset of web-stuff that already is known to work >> very well and efficiently. >> >> Disclaimer: I really do not know the details. This is only a >> superficial view gained during the last months. > > ISTM that it would be more productive to examine LibreOffice. We do > wish to turn Emacs into a word processor, after all. And LibreOffice > provides layout capabilities that are in no way inferior to those > supplies by the editors found within web browsers, all while being > designed to edit rather than display documents. >From my point of view Emacs slowly turns into an environment that runs modes that greatly become to behave more like applications rather than extensions to a program. Emacs is in someway like a web browser or a jvm. These more extensive modes require more advanced features similar as when turning Emacs into a "word processor". In my opinion Emacs being single threaded is the biggest hurdle in that, gui lockup is the biggest no no in regular gui apps.