From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d0b080a480611ea967009b87840d1e1c; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 14:04:29 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?Q?=22Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora=22's?= message of "Tue, 14 Nov 2023 11:47:51 +0000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21896 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.190.146; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic315-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312730 Archived-At: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > That's not. > > LOOP, pcase, etc, like any other macros, are mini-languages. Like > any higher-level language, the more powerful they are, the more > transformations they will do on your input. LOOP is pretty powerful, > and may or may not be suitable for the task at hand, like any other > language. Four (by some counts five) individuals, all Emacs users, that is to say the constituency who will ultimately judge these constructs, have taken issue with these macros on the grounds that they are difficult to understand. When all's said and done, the factor that contributes to whether using a feature is meritorious is not the amount of use that can be gotten out of them alone. Rather, it is that amount considered in tandem with the complexity introduced into its users as perceived from "20,000 ft. views" and the extent to which its users cannot be recast in terms of different, simpler constructs. The examples that have been circulated in support of cl-loop thus far have not demonstrated this extent to be anything except nil, so it's fair to conclude that most calls to cl-loop are frivolous, and its complexity is a great failing.