From: Shawn Betts <sabetts@vee-see-en.bee-see.see-a>
Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:42:19 GMT [thread overview]
Message-ID: <878y4jiij7.fsf@verizon.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: opsnvd2glkp52o26@home-ca12fabbc0
PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
> On 18 Mar 2005 22:57:17 +0100, Pascal Bourguignon
> <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> > PT <mailshield.gg@mailnull.com> writes:
> >
> >> I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this idea, but I think it
> >> really would help if emacs had a newbie-mode which made it easier for
> >> newbies to get acquainted with it.
> >
> > C-h t
>
> That's exactly what I meant. The key bindings shown in the tutorial
> are leftovers from a world when there were no arrow keys on keyboards.
>
> I have some colleagues using VIM and Emacs and none of them use the
> standard keys for movement, all of them use the arrow keys. I've been
> using emacs for 6+ years, customized it inside out, wrote minor modes
> for it and yet I too use the arrow keys, not M-f and M-b and such.
>
> I may sound like a heretic, but I don't think a newbie should learn
> new keybindings for cursor movement.
I don't really understand your longterm objective. It seems like you
want to make Emacs easier to pick up for people who come from a
Windows background. So without thinking much about it, I can see how
it makes sense to change the keybindings to something they're used
to. But what happens after that?
Emacs is self consistent. Good Emacs programs follow The Emacs
Way. Changing some common keybindings might help newbs to stick with
it a bit longer, but pretty soon they'll hit the next layer. These
newbs still haven't learned how everything works together nor have
they become fimiliar with Emacs key bindings. So do you keep
disfiguring Emacs to hide from them the AWFUL truth? When does it end?
Eventually they'll HAVE learn how to use Emacs the way it was
intended. And I sure hope so! Emacs keybindings are WAY better.
In the end, the newb has to sit down and spend the time. There's no
way around it. Emacs is an AWESOME system. compromising that
awesomeness for cuddly fuzziness will just prolong the inevitable: the
newb will probably abandon Emacs. Like you said (in one of your
posts), its foreign. It takes effort to learn.
If newbs believe that Emacs is better then they'll stick with it long
enough for the sweet, sweet payoff. They have to want to learn
it. dicking with keybindings won't change that.
Its not Emacs that has to change. Its their minds. Your time is better
spent erecting billboards telling ppl how insanely great Emacs is than
convincing Emacs hackers they should smash holes in their Perfect
System for fools.
-Shawn
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2005-03-19 18:42 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 123+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2005-03-18 21:12 Making Emacs more newbie friendly PT
2005-03-18 21:57 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-19 5:40 ` PT
2005-03-19 7:57 ` rgb
2005-03-19 9:51 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 10:46 ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-19 11:01 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 0:42 ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-19 20:16 ` Miles Bader
[not found] ` <mailman.4427.1111265353.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 20:53 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 10:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.4380.1111231068.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 14:23 ` PT
2005-03-19 15:08 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 15:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 10:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 14:34 ` nfreimann
2005-03-19 15:49 ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2005-03-19 16:13 ` nfreimann
[not found] ` <mailman.4406.1111250911.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 19:12 ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 19:35 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 21:00 ` Miles Bader
[not found] ` <mailman.4435.1111267700.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 22:42 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 15:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 12:42 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-19 14:56 ` PT
2005-03-19 15:37 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 17:45 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-19 18:07 ` PT
2005-03-19 18:15 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 18:24 ` PT
2005-03-19 18:34 ` David Kastrup
2005-04-09 18:01 ` Nathan Hess
[not found] ` <mailman.4378.1111230698.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 13:41 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 14:31 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 16:04 ` Lee Sau Dan
2005-03-20 12:33 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 17:33 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-21 7:39 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 10:07 ` Joe Corneli
2005-03-21 11:27 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2005-03-22 11:25 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 11:54 ` Klaus Straubinger
2005-03-21 12:37 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 12:27 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 12:47 ` Jason Rumney
2005-03-21 18:30 ` Drew Adams
2005-03-19 15:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 17:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2005-03-20 12:42 ` Brian Elmegaard
[not found] ` <mailman.4399.1111247782.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 12:39 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 20:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.4504.1111351877.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 21:05 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-21 8:11 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 19:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.4626.1111436194.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-22 11:33 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 14:52 ` PT
2005-03-19 15:14 ` David Hansen
2005-03-19 15:33 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 16:00 ` PT
2005-03-19 16:22 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 16:57 ` PT
2005-03-19 17:16 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-19 17:55 ` PT
2005-03-19 18:03 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 12:52 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 17:44 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 21:49 ` Alan Mackenzie
2005-03-22 11:46 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-22 13:09 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-23 7:29 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-21 8:17 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 18:01 ` PT
2005-03-19 20:45 ` Miles Bader
2005-03-20 17:43 ` Alan Mackenzie
2005-03-19 18:05 ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 18:15 ` PT
2005-03-20 17:51 ` Alan Mackenzie
2005-03-19 17:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 23:16 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20 11:49 ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-20 13:06 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-19 16:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-19 18:16 ` Shawn Betts
2005-03-19 23:34 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20 0:45 ` David Kastrup
[not found] ` <mailman.4404.1111249572.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 11:51 ` Steinar Børmer
2005-03-20 16:31 ` ken
[not found] ` <mailman.4485.1111338015.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 23:35 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-21 4:44 ` Sean Richards
2005-03-21 11:00 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-22 20:33 ` Sean Richards
2005-03-19 15:45 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-19 15:54 ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2005-03-19 17:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.4413.1111254615.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-19 23:33 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20 4:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2005-03-20 9:07 ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2005-03-20 11:30 ` nfreimann
2005-03-20 12:16 ` Gian Uberto Lauri
[not found] ` <mailman.4474.1111322832.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 18:04 ` Joe Bush
2005-03-21 8:23 ` Brian Elmegaard
[not found] ` <mailman.4470.1111319220.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 13:01 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-20 17:37 ` David Kastrup
[not found] ` <mailman.4443.1111294657.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 15:29 ` Pascal Bourguignon
2005-03-20 15:58 ` Joe Corneli
[not found] ` <mailman.4479.1111335526.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-20 20:33 ` Jochen Küpper
2005-03-20 23:50 ` Joe Corneli
2005-03-20 12:59 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-20 17:45 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-21 8:19 ` Brian Elmegaard
2005-03-19 18:42 ` Shawn Betts [this message]
2005-03-19 19:27 ` David Kastrup
2005-03-20 6:55 ` Joe Corneli
2005-03-18 22:11 ` Peter Dyballa
2005-03-19 17:17 ` Jason Rumney
2005-03-19 18:10 ` Floyd L. Davidson
2005-03-22 1:59 ` Cristian Gutierrez
2005-03-21 9:56 ` Mathias Dahl
2005-03-21 19:23 ` Peter K. Lee
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2005-03-21 12:53 nfreimann
2005-03-21 15:22 ` Joe Corneli
[not found] <mailman.4566.1111411378.32256.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2005-03-21 13:21 ` Klaus Straubinger
2005-03-21 21:44 ` Miles Bader
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