From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Pascal Bourguignon Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Why emacs have not native language menu Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:02:13 +0200 Organization: Informatimago Message-ID: <878x95dhne.fsf@voyager.informatimago.com> References: <46A49912.9030203@luxdo.jp> <877ioqdoq9.fsf@voyager.informatimago.com> <87hcnuc6hz.fsf@voyager.informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1185288053 11557 80.91.229.12 (24 Jul 2007 14:40:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:40:53 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 24 16:40:52 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IDLZD-0006pF-QO for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:40:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDLZD-0000VU-ET for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:40:51 -0400 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 95 Original-X-Trace: individual.net 355nruMqbHBVvVbcSWOV0Q6BJgIu5pc3KwcOg8t9ARlW2IS94d Cancel-Lock: sha1:LSPkdw97j1kOq4FKfCbVxQR1wQQ= sha1:oDza/E5qjS2+0anvUH2GoJNlel0= Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAQMAAABtzGvEAAAABlBMVEUAAAD///+l2Z/dAAAA oElEQVR4nK3OsRHCMAwF0O8YQufUNIQRGIAja9CxSA55AxZgFO4coMgYrEDDQZWPIlNAjwq9 033pbOBPtbXuB6PKNBn5gZkhGa86Z4x2wE67O+06WxGD/HCOGR0deY3f9Ijwwt7rNGNf6Oac l/GuZTF1wFGKiYYHKSFAkjIo1b6sCYS1sVmFhhhahKQssRjRT90ITWUk6vvK3RsPGs+M1RuR mV+hO/VvFAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Accept-Language: fr, es, en X-Disabled: X-No-Archive: no User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.94 (gnu/linux) Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:150377 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:45958 Archived-At: Hadron writes: > Pascal Bourguignon writes: > >> Jean-Christophe Helary writes: >>> [...] >>> That is a possibility but obviously there are much more Japanese or >>> French people who use their software now than then. >> >> Yes, applications. >> >> >>> What good is a software package if it can't be used by linguistically >>> challenged people ? >> >> Linguistically challenged people just cannot program. > > What has "program" got to do with Emacs, even if you are totally > incorrect in your assumption. emacs is a programming environment with a textual user interface library (ie and "editor"). emacs = Editing MACroS. > I know plenty of top notch programmers who > are unable to master french or german but are happy with their native > english. On the other hand, all the other programmers need to learn English to be able to program. >> You cannot translate programming languages. This has been tried >> several times, BEFORE the Internet existed (eg BASICOIS, a Basic in >> French, there was also a Pascal in French, and I bet a number of >> variations in other languages). All these experiment failed, because >> programs must be readable to be useful, and French is readably only by >> French people. Pascal is readable by all programmers! > > Aha. OK. You are talking about localised lisp? Maybe I got lost here. What else? This is what emacs is. >> Nowadays, with the Internet and the worldwide job market, it's just >> impossible to translate a programming language. And this is what >> emacs is. > > No. That is NOT what emacs is. eLisp is the programming language. Emacs > is an infrastructure which supports multiple applications programmed in > elisp. They can be localised. Look, if you asked to localize microemacs or nano, I'd say, no problem go ahead. But emacs is lisp. >> Now if you implement an application in emacs you may try to proposed >> localized versions. But there are very few applications in emacs, >> most emacs software keeps the powerful link between the programming >> environment and the functionalities provided. Does anybody know an >> emacs applications where you can do _everything_ only using menus and >> buttons? Or where you would _want_ to do everything that way? > > I think people are possibly talking at cross purposes here. Or maybe > just me? Well, by making the distinction between emacs and the applications (eg doctor, gnus, vm, life, etc), I'm trying to establish a common language here. I'm saying that you may consider localizing applications, but you cannot localize successfully emacs. And for applications, you have to be careful to consider only those emacs applications that behave very distinctly from the normal emacs way. A major-mode is not an emacs application, it's emacs. As I wrote, you have to consider only the applications that can be used only thru menu and buttons. Any application where it's easier or necessary to use M-x, you fail, since M-x gives you access to lisp stuff that you cannot localize without making a mess. Also, the simple fact of localizing something, renders it unprogrammable, because a programmer knows his mother tongue and English, and cannot translate his little add-on functions and commands. Therefore users of localized applications cannot share their code anymore, and you break the opensource philosophy. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/