From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Paul R Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Emacs, oldsters, newbiness (was: Emacs Wiki Revision History) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:31:14 +0200 Message-ID: <878wse8kdp.fsf_-_@gmail.com> References: <251d6b72-b760-411b-8c35-83a7788e2491@u75g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <68deb805-c16f-48ec-96a1-5dd8fd7e5e48@x1g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <56aa1c42-303b-4150-8d96-9159487244e2@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com> <7343b66f-7262-466c-8975-9774dce22d88@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <7bddb878-9f4c-4140-827c-83cd29c96e5f@l77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1224837111 19134 80.91.229.12 (24 Oct 2008 08:31:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:31:51 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Alex Schroeder Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 24 10:32:52 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KtI6F-0007zD-4r for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:32:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50148 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KtI58-00038P-La for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:31:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KtI4q-000384-0u for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:31:24 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KtI4p-000372-9L for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:31:23 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=51375 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KtI4p-00036z-7L for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:31:23 -0400 Original-Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.191]:22444) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KtI4p-0002Yt-0B for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:31:23 -0400 Original-Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 18so608424fkq.10 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 01:31:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:to:cc:subject:from:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:references:mime-version :content-type; bh=kervqjGtU7KQ2uRLRAyJsK3jNfLdSTL9oGAgQM7tRKg=; b=CK9zUScNihvHCrN3+jFZAo+aZqddCcf002JSRyswiPWNO8X63ZywVavDJu6RWBJSSH YLWegEtVw6vptaFFT6PmLC05Kk+JpeuuPGcoSZsnu6DAzcHQKix2vBKLkiMa9x7moVPu 0KmxhhMKrZHmFsIqo9TlQbGmxbsXdpvWL91ig= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=to:cc:subject:from:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :references:mime-version:content-type; b=pYVn6RllVSo5Gg44VDW39Y5y8kLxzb7j8Y6MGPQM+74zLK7yqoqJxRlE6aJ+ujbAcn cBuYWbrkH51jwQX/eOfYH6FoN67y4B7siLECf/nAHjdK4y4zloyPf2J+CWe65CFZhnWO yJNcf+fyOQ/mf61ta6Twe5yB+K7K4Re64CeE0= Original-Received: by 10.181.226.2 with SMTP id d2mr608755bkr.204.1224837081148; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 01:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ubuT42 (pdc35-1-82-242-132-111.fbx.proxad.net [82.242.132.111]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f31sm21833530fkf.0.2008.10.24.01.31.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 24 Oct 2008 01:31:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7bddb878-9f4c-4140-827c-83cd29c96e5f@l77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> (Alex Schroeder's message of "Thu\, 23 Oct 2008 15\:47\:55 -0700 \(PDT\)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:59113 Archived-At: I think there is something in the emacs active hackers community now, that has been here for a long time now, and that can be simply formulated . A lot GNU/Emacs active developers develop emacs for their own needs of emacs gurus. Those are concentrating all their efforts on what bog them the most. It's like it has become for them a solitary pleasure, or necessity, to hack on emacs. Doing so, they tend to neglect to clean up and facilitate the steep and hard path going from the state of total newbiness to emacs, to the state of being able to appreciate the work being done at the moment. I am sure they enjoy what they do, as they are highly skilled developpers spending time on what they feel important. But over the time, Emacs from the outside tends to look like a wall, an old rough wall that as been there for ages. Behind the wall, there is the magic treasure that grows with the number of people benefiting from it. But almost nobody is tall enough to see the jowels. Most new comers to emacs I can observe look at this old wall, give a try to climb it, hurt their hands on it and give up. After all, they don't doubt they can find some other jowels far easier to pick up, no matter how beautiful they are. And while hackers enrich the treasure inside, newcomers can't cross the wall, don't feel really welcome, and turn heels. It is in some ways similar to the lack of guidelines in emacswiki. Power users don't mind the relative mess resulting of this policy, and they enjoy the very high freedom they have to drop code here and there, and to start a discussion right in the wiki below the code. But for a newcomer, finding what (s)he looks for will be hard. I think Alex has done a great job at doing what he wanted to. Emacswiki is undoubtedly a success for emacs hackers to put code, tips and to discuss. I guess it was never meant to be a portal to the emacs world, designed to suit newbies needs above all. Maybe what you want, Xah, is such a portal, with very structured information, no duplication, one-problem-one-solution, aimed at being accessible above all. Why not, I'm sure it would be a good thing, although you are probably aware of your current own difficulties at being "accessible", to say the least. Alex has said it all when he sincerely encouraged you to do it. We all do encourage you to do it. But making emacs more accessible to the newcomers is a whole project in itself. Emacswiki, in spite of its relative mess, is clearly a step in this direction. Though, I'm afraid there is not so much room for improvement in this area as long as core developers show constant reluctance to change the defaults of emacs, which are most of this high, rough, wall. -- Paul