From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: proposal to make null string handling more emacs-y Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 13:24:05 +0900 Message-ID: <878vhhn6oq.fsf@catnip.gol.com> References: <83d36wfcf1.fsf@gnu.org> <834ns7g9r8.fsf@gnu.org> <87ty06nnxp.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87vckmm2z7.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87ehr9vp0r.fsf@destructor.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87ehr9n8nh.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87y5phu8o3.fsf@destructor.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1335500659 1895 80.91.229.3 (27 Apr 2012 04:24:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 04:24:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jeremiah Dodds Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 27 06:24:18 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SNcjA-0001KT-Fk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 06:24:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47075 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SNcj9-0004fr-Ju for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:24:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:49968) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SNcj6-0004fj-DC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:24:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SNcj4-000852-DR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:24:11 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp11.dentaku.gol.com ([203.216.5.73]:47314) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SNcj3-00084e-UQ; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:24:10 -0400 Original-Received: from 218.231.154.2.eo.eaccess.ne.jp ([218.231.154.2] helo=catnip.gol.com) by smtp11.dentaku.gol.com with esmtpa (Dentaku) (envelope-from ) id 1SNcj1-0002yx-5S; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 13:24:07 +0900 Original-Received: by catnip.gol.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2C3F1DFC1; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 13:24:06 +0900 (JST) System-Type: x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu In-Reply-To: <87y5phu8o3.fsf@destructor.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> (Jeremiah Dodds's message of "Thu, 26 Apr 2012 23:59:24 -0400") Original-Lines: 48 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV GOL (outbound) X-Abuse-Complaints: abuse@gol.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 203.216.5.73 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:150080 Archived-At: Jeremiah Dodds writes: >>> I believe this is because it seems that the "uh-oh i got a nil when I >>> expected a string" error commonly happens on emacs startup, confusing >>> new users, presumably after loading some big bunch of elisp. >> >> Does it? I don't think I've _ever_ seen that error at startup (though >> I've certainly had errors during startup)... > > It's happened to me enough times over the course of the decade or so > that I've been using emacs to remember it. I know that the first few > times it happened, I was pretty green and got really confused for a > while. Nowadays, I know how to figure out wtf is going on. Startup is typically a particularly intense period of elisp execution in a short period of time, so it's not surprising if errors are more noticeable there, and particularly annoying, because they often leave Emacs in an uncertain state. But: (1) This particular type of error (nil when string expected) is just as, or even more, likely to occur over the rest of Emacs' execution. (2) Many other types of errors (whether bugs or transient errors because of e.g. environmental issues or something [can't open some file, network down, ...]) can occur during startup So there doesn't really seem to be all that much correlation between what Steve was complaining about and startup. To the extent his complaint is valid, it's a general issue, not a "startup issue." Moreover, if Emacs is clumsy at handling errors during startup (and I agree that it is), that's a problem that should be addressed generally in the startup mechanism, not by bandaids on only vaguely related areas. In other words, these these things look largely orthogonal. [If this particular bandaid were harmless maybe it should be added anyway, as a stop-gap to a more proper solution -- but it isn't harmless, at least when applied generally; in certain cases, it may be, of course.] -Miles -- `Life is a boundless sea of bitterness'