From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org>
To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs completion matches selection UI
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:47:40 +0900 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <878uvizrwz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87a9fylusq.fsf@flea.lifelogs.com>
Ted Zlatanov writes:
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:58:44 +0900 "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
>
> SJT> Ted Zlatanov writes:
> >> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:29:30 -0500 Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA> wrote:
>
> SM> I'm not sure why you see it as something the user wouldn't like.
> >>
> >> Because it's not familiar.
>
> SJT> "Familiar" has never been a reason in itself for doing things in
> SJT> Emacs
>
> Sure it has.
Oh, in *that* sense, yes -- but that's cheating. *Your* argument
requires the meaning "familiar to people who aren't familiar with
Emacs", and I adopted your terminology.
> SJT> and obviously "unfamiliar" is a superset of "innovative", so make
> SJT> sure you fish the baby out of the bathwater first.
>
> I think the "baby" is decades of HCI research we seem to ignore.
HCI research is mostly crap, AFAICT. (The part that worked on Dvorak
vs. QWERTY has been thoroughly documented to be mostly crap.) For
example, I don't really see any productivity differences among
C-c/C-x/C-v, M-w/C-w/C-y, and whatever it is that vi uses. What's
important about CUA and Emacs is that they're *everywhere* in the
user's "app space". No surprise there, and Emacs already has that,
since before CUA took over the world, too. That's precisely why Emacs
users tend to "live" in Emacs: it provides a highly optimized UI that
they are familiar with, used to, and know how to extend.
Discoverability does matter, I admit. Apple seems to have gotten that
right, but are we really going to revise all of Emacs to be compatible
with a one-button mouse?
> >> Do you need examples of how popular and standard this behavior is
> >> today?
>
> SJT> Ted, it's not about "popular" (especially not "popular with developers
> SJT> who create applications that make Emacs developers feel sick") and
> SJT> "standard".
>
> Hey, I think you need an example! libreadline (and most shells that use
> it). Attacking the Notepad/W32/crapGUI straw man won't help this
> discussion.
I wasn't talking about Notepad or the Win32 API at that point. I was
talking about the fact that *Office isn't what Richard or I or the
org-mode devs :-) want in a word processor.
And it's not the sucky GUI that I was talking about when I mentioned
Notepad. It's the reality discontinuity that occurs when you want to
do something more than libreadline or Notepad can do (except for the
height of the "text widget", they're arguably of similar power :-).
At that point Emacs and the rest of the world (including shells) part
company, and I don't see anything in your argument that deals with
that discontinuity.
Feel free to expand on the libreadline example, though. I suspect it
falls apart in the sense that I know that I want *consistent*
completion throughout Emacs, where a minibuffer is just a buffer that
happens to be one line high. Whereas libreadline is highly optimized
to work with the constraint that the buffer *is* exactly one line
high. But that's mostly uninformed intuition, somewhat informed by
the idea of a "reality discontinuity".
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-12-18 4:47 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 258+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-11-18 16:13 Emacs completion matches selection UI Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-18 20:00 ` Bozhidar Batsov
2013-11-18 20:54 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-18 21:15 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-19 0:43 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-19 9:52 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-11-19 13:41 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-19 14:00 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-11-19 14:58 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-19 17:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-19 21:07 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-20 0:28 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-20 1:30 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-20 3:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-20 17:52 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-20 19:10 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-20 20:00 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-20 15:57 ` Josh
2013-11-21 0:52 ` Juri Linkov
2013-11-21 3:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 0:10 ` Juri Linkov
2013-11-22 7:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 12:33 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-25 13:28 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-25 15:18 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-16 15:17 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-16 18:35 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-16 22:15 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-17 2:10 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-17 10:49 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-17 18:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-17 20:59 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-18 1:58 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-18 3:09 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-18 4:47 ` Stephen J. Turnbull [this message]
2013-12-18 14:43 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-18 15:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-18 16:38 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-18 17:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-18 17:18 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-18 17:37 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-18 19:05 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-18 21:11 ` chad
2013-12-19 3:40 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-19 15:49 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-19 17:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-12-19 18:44 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-19 21:44 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-12-20 1:15 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-20 3:06 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-20 3:08 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-12-20 11:49 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-20 13:18 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-12-20 14:59 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-22 1:45 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-22 2:29 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-12-22 11:07 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-22 16:07 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-12-22 22:50 ` enabling company-capf support in cfengine.el (was: Emacs completion matches selection UI) Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-23 0:17 ` enabling company-capf support in cfengine.el Dmitry Gutov
2013-12-23 1:11 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-23 1:32 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-16 13:12 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-16 16:06 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-16 17:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-17 13:04 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-18 14:13 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-19 2:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-19 16:44 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-19 20:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-19 20:44 ` David Engster
2014-01-20 0:13 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-20 2:14 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2014-01-20 2:39 ` John Yates
2014-01-20 3:22 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2014-01-20 7:10 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-20 14:22 ` John Yates
2014-01-20 14:55 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-20 15:09 ` clang vs free software (was: enabling company-capf support in cfengine.el) Stefan Monnier
2014-01-20 19:47 ` clang vs free software David Engster
2014-01-21 14:42 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-21 15:02 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-21 15:20 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-22 15:31 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-22 17:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-21 15:34 ` John Yates
2014-01-21 16:00 ` Rüdiger Sonderfeld
2014-01-21 16:25 ` joakim
2014-01-21 16:34 ` Rüdiger Sonderfeld
2014-01-21 16:38 ` joakim
2014-01-21 18:50 ` Rüdiger Sonderfeld
2014-01-21 18:00 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2014-01-21 18:44 ` Rüdiger Sonderfeld
2014-01-23 10:55 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-23 11:01 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-23 14:26 ` Helmut Eller
2014-01-25 23:02 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-25 23:28 ` Daniel Colascione
2014-01-26 1:35 ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-26 6:45 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-26 12:13 ` Daniel Colascione
2014-01-26 12:35 ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-26 14:45 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-26 20:06 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-26 20:06 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-26 10:22 ` Helmut Eller
2014-01-26 11:12 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-26 12:36 ` Helmut Eller
2014-01-26 14:54 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-26 20:06 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-26 15:12 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-26 15:15 ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-26 15:35 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-26 15:46 ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-23 16:35 ` Rüdiger Sonderfeld
2014-01-23 18:04 ` David Engster
2014-01-22 2:06 ` unic0rn
2014-01-20 15:57 ` enabling company-capf support in cfengine.el Stephen J. Turnbull
2014-01-20 3:32 ` Óscar Fuentes
2014-01-20 13:59 ` John Yates
2014-01-20 14:30 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-20 17:01 ` John Yates
2014-01-20 2:17 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-19 16:54 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-19 20:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-19 23:57 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-20 2:20 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-20 2:33 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-20 13:41 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-23 1:36 ` Emacs completion matches selection UI Stefan Monnier
2013-12-23 2:12 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-12-23 13:33 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-20 1:19 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-20 1:17 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-20 14:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-20 15:54 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-21 3:32 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-21 4:58 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-22 2:05 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-22 23:15 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-23 1:59 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-23 12:28 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-23 13:42 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-23 14:52 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-30 20:47 ` Toby Cubitt
2013-12-31 0:20 ` Leo Liu
2013-12-31 7:48 ` joakim
2013-12-31 14:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-12-31 15:52 ` Toby Cubitt
2013-12-31 17:45 ` joakim
2014-01-02 18:54 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-02 18:10 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-03 17:49 ` Ted Zlatanov
2014-01-03 19:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04 0:48 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-04 3:45 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-06 4:47 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-06 23:38 ` Ted Zlatanov
2014-01-07 3:57 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-04 9:21 ` João Távora
2014-01-06 23:21 ` Ted Zlatanov
2014-01-02 20:20 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-02 22:58 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-03 2:40 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-03 14:30 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-03 16:23 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-03 16:48 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-03 19:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-03 22:06 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-04 3:39 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-06 4:00 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-03 16:35 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-03 17:46 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2014-01-04 2:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-04 3:54 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-05 4:08 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-05 16:04 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-06 4:25 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-06 5:25 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-06 2:39 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-06 4:03 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-06 5:35 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-06 5:55 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-06 14:47 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-06 15:54 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-06 20:53 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-06 23:45 ` Ted Zlatanov
2014-01-06 7:36 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-06 15:51 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-07 0:17 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-07 3:32 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-07 23:23 ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-08 2:58 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-08 3:38 ` Bob Bobeck
2014-01-08 3:47 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-08 9:27 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-08 15:37 ` Ted Zlatanov
2014-01-08 4:49 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-08 15:33 ` Ted Zlatanov
2014-01-08 16:11 ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-09 7:12 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-12-23 13:45 ` John Yates
2013-12-23 16:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-24 2:47 ` John Yates
2013-12-28 14:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-28 16:43 ` John Yates
2013-12-30 12:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-12-30 16:32 ` João Távora
2014-01-04 23:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-05 2:13 ` João Távora
2014-01-05 16:11 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-06 23:48 ` Ted Zlatanov
2014-01-07 3:15 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-07 16:13 ` Ted Zlatanov
2014-01-07 17:18 ` João Távora
2014-01-07 18:10 ` Josh
2014-01-07 19:42 ` David Kastrup
2014-01-08 3:54 ` Josh
2014-01-07 3:16 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-07 16:12 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-28 15:59 ` João Távora
2013-12-28 17:00 ` John Yates
2013-12-28 17:40 ` Josh
2013-12-19 4:53 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-19 5:45 ` chad
2013-12-19 7:03 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-19 7:59 ` Aaron Ecay
2013-12-19 15:29 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-19 17:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-19 18:46 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-12-20 0:53 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-19 6:23 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-19 16:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-21 10:17 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-11-21 16:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 5:38 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-22 15:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 10:03 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-19 13:48 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-19 18:03 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-20 0:10 ` Gregor Zattler
2013-11-20 1:25 ` Ted Zlatanov
2013-11-20 17:59 ` John Yates
2013-11-19 0:47 ` Juri Linkov
2013-11-19 11:18 ` Tom
2013-11-19 14:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-20 0:45 ` Juri Linkov
2013-11-20 7:34 ` martin rudalics
2013-11-20 7:50 ` Tom
2013-11-21 0:45 ` Juri Linkov
2013-11-21 7:41 ` martin rudalics
2013-11-22 0:18 ` Juri Linkov
2013-11-22 10:26 ` martin rudalics
2013-11-19 19:44 ` Dmitry Gutov
2013-11-20 7:39 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2013-11-19 17:33 ` Sebastian Wiesner
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2013-12-30 20:35 Barry OReilly
2014-01-01 18:12 ` Stefan Monnier
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=878uvizrwz.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp \
--to=stephen@xemacs.org \
--cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this external index
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git
This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.