From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Marcin Borkowski Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 22:29:27 +0200 Message-ID: <878ubagod3.fsf@mbork.pl> References: <557F3C22.4060909@cs.ucla.edu> <5580D356.4050708@cs.ucla.edu> <87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org> <5581C29E.1030101@yandex.ru> <87r3p9fxm2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87k2v0fiji.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150619090225.GA2743@acm.fritz.box> <87fv5kfrfa.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83twtzhi9g.fsf@gnu.org> <877fqvfvby.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83fv5jh8ls.fsf@gnu.org> <874mlzf71d.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <558945C2.2010203@yandex.ru> <831th2h1m3.fsf@gnu.org> <83lhfaff0f.fsf@gnu.org> <83ioaefcy8.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1435091432 31637 80.91.229.3 (23 Jun 2015 20:30:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 20:30:32 +0000 (UTC) To: Nikolai Weibull , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, acm@muc.de, stephen@xemacs.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 23 22:30:22 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7Upp-0000Xd-2O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 22:30:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47297 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7Upo-0003jt-ER for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:30:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48115) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7UpR-0003Ir-RB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:29:59 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7UpJ-000210-Qo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:29:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([2a01:5e00:2:52::8]:38029) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7UpJ-0001vG-FK; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:29:49 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12B46F2001; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 22:29:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3f6NJTlVdl9i; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 22:29:37 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (ipz217.internetdsl.tpnet.pl [79.190.154.217]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 910D94FA03B; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 22:29:36 +0200 (CEST) In-reply-to: <83ioaefcy8.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a01:5e00:2:52::8 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187449 Archived-At: On 2015-06-23, at 21:21, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > They shouldn't be expected to be able to distinguish between > confusingly similar, but subtly different characters. Let me give you > a few examples: > > " > =E2=80=9C > =E2=80=9D > =E2=80=9F > =E3=80=9E > =E3=80=9F > =E2=80=9C > =E2=80=9E 1. My personal opinion is: I prefer `...', but I could live with =E2=80=98= ...=E2=80=99 provided that the input and search problems will be solved in a satisfactory way and that I could find a font which renders them better than the default font in my Emacs (Ubuntu Mono), where the Unicode quotes look terrible. (I guess that when I finally get rid of this pile of crap which Ubuntu has become, it will get better automatically...) 2. I would like to point out to all Unicode fanboys (no offence, please, I'm also a fanboy, though definitely not of Unicode) that AFAIK (though I can't find any source now) there is a bug in Unicode: U+201C should really be split into two characters, "LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK" and "GERMAN RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK" (see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#German_.28Germany_and_A= ustria.29). While their shape is identical, their bounding boxes should be mirror images of each other. So please don't tell me that Unicode "solves the problem of nice quotes". It does, but at the same time it introduces problems of its own. (A funny one: see http://unicodelookup.com/#math and try to guess what happened to 0x1D455, or "mathematical italic small h". A stupid one: U+FE18, with a typo in the name.) In fact, Unicode seems to be fundamentally broken by design, since it identifies characters by numbers instead of names. This basically excludes any language with an infinite[1] alphabet. [1] "infinite" in a practical sense, not a theoretical one, of course. It is closer to "potential infinity". I mean here a language where it is legal to create new characters on the fly, when needed, provided they are combined from some basic shapes according to the rules. Best, --=20 Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science Adam Mickiewicz University