From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Should we restore manually maintained ChangeLogs Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:42:22 -0600 Message-ID: <878u1uqj5t.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <87vb4zb0i4.fsf@gnu.org> <837fheuu6a.fsf@gnu.org> <83twkiteb3.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Karl Fogel NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457372607 29916 80.91.229.3 (7 Mar 2016 17:43:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 17:43:27 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 07 18:43:18 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aczBa-0006Jk-Cl for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 18:43:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57435 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aczBZ-0005Eb-Qk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:43:13 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48627) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aczAr-00046z-Co for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:42:30 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aczAn-0004IL-8G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:42:29 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-yw0-x234.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c05::234]:36731) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aczAn-0004IH-43 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:42:25 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-yw0-x234.google.com with SMTP id g3so43926660ywa.3 for ; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 09:42:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=jJulyz+glMeL4u9ltpB33KEtD50BaEfx5mUm5QzlS5g=; b=tkBN2/Yyrq9ZcwbgyJYUflOdi/m3f1R4JzHXe+MARgIgGykTKqoIGB/95UFgC3a7Al tZTgW3K466ewDa/Jw5vpNAgwRw+fwoooOORL7Gcn+32dpvhnVJKHSwQGJM6MzLRu3J4C eD0laYE1ve9VIx7UdEUdi0mBspW4z1Q9sj9xZKo2JtXsE0IFxdVxnxCNscwLtiGIkIqg ciZ3usPuk2LFxLMkXHwdBtYkwemjreEBn98/8dRu6WzlAYYctvVbAcEnjwqO1T9UDmeu YU4NUI94ru1ZlTCi7PMp/vFLVedaVbdajm7n1sNerROdkvUjF3ry1yJdQ+fMu9bKHyKN tG4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:subject:references:reply-to:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=jJulyz+glMeL4u9ltpB33KEtD50BaEfx5mUm5QzlS5g=; b=mabbK8Lq+CoS9iOqDFpDOzNbtvbKfOhHQWcWSrMW53POfsS39eeVDMFT3IDp2covqL Kwld0Z2FV9wBTtUWo9LqSYHYDlB4jhgwA373Ij4wxpi2ZboKpEoLveWOVlQb50hLcx/Z rnSs2NC7yuF9/xy9NUY6it/RpDgpO9t3waxJNz6NgHd0EGDK38jwXgCmGNt7QeJRXamd AUf2al/Iv1R9a69Z14mhA12DAD4Q7EQcaCAqwSx1H6jpZC8sVXl+kqisnPf3eyjDRj2f 17ProuDVA4uwTYg25NyTy+QCVCb/QguEspx0GdTQGGIIfYkHgJ8FXgFXUjzpiWqCd6Ge nDlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLHr02Bh4RRmxuOQKolWquhz7aQH35S8IhsI494NAT5oleHn21Goeh5CTJ1ghGeYw== X-Received: by 10.129.56.87 with SMTP id f84mr12612556ywa.14.1457372544405; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 09:42:24 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from floss (74-92-190-114-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [74.92.190.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k186sm12535063ywf.14.2016.03.07.09.42.23 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Mar 2016 09:42:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Mon, 07 Mar 2016 09:16:27 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.92 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4002:c05::234 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201062 Archived-At: John Wiegley writes: >> But the discussion is not the main issue. We should actually go back to >> having an actively maintained ChangeLog file in the repository, something we >> stopped doing a year ago. If there's agreement to that, I rest my case. > >OK, let's shift this discussion in that direction again. > >Given that there are active developers who appreciate and use the ChangeLog >format, I don't think we are going to remove them just yet. Instead, the >question has been raised as to whether we should go back to maintaining >ChangeLog files manually, or continue to generate them from version control as >we do now. > >My vote is to continue generating from version control, and Eli would like to >go back to direct maintenance. What do others think? It's no great burden to maintain them manually, once you get used to it; if the developers who are doing the most work would prefer it, then +1 to switching back to the old way of manually maintaining ChangeLogs. I'll admit, I'm not clear on the advantage myself :-). The other free software projects I work in use the version control system's logs, without separate ChangeLog files, and it's fine. Most of those projects use the same commit message conventions (see http://chris.beams.io/posts/git-commit/), and I can't remember any log search I ever wanted to do that I could have done with ChangeLogs but was unable to do with the vc-system logs -- it's the same information, after all, and the Emacs project can enforce the ChangeLog conventions on git commit logs. I guess one advantage of manually-maintained ChangeLogs is that the entries can still be fixed or improved after being committed, which isn't in practice possible with git commit logs, once the commits have been pushed upstream. In any case, I don't mean any of the above as a sour-grapes statement. I really do believe that if the people doing the most work would prefer manually-maintained ChangeLogs, we should just do that. It's not that hard for developers. Heck, all I used to do is take my commit message and put it in the ChangeLog too; that's pretty simple. -Karl P.S. For those who use 'git log' rather than ChangeLog when exploring history, the helper `kf-git-show-change' in http://svn.red-bean.com/repos/kfogel/trunk/.emacs may be useful. With point anywhere inside a commit message from 'git log' output, run that command to display the associated change.