From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8=?= Kayaalp Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Fwd: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 19:37:19 +0300 Message-ID: <878sdkrzr4.fsf@gkayaalp.com> References: <87a6y0s0fb.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33748"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 28.0.50 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 08 18:38:06 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFgdC-0008fn-EY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 18:38:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41426 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFgdB-0004c4-GW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:38:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48016) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFgcb-0003rH-0K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:37:29 -0400 Original-Received: from relay9-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.199]:52247) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFgcY-0001XI-UG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:37:28 -0400 X-Originating-IP: 31.206.236.86 Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [31.206.236.86]) (Authenticated sender: self@gkayaalp.com) by relay9-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2CCD6FF806 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 16:37:20 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: 20200907163109.k6jzzb6xj76xiqou@Ergus Received-SPF: none client-ip=217.70.183.199; envelope-from=self@gkayaalp.com; helo=relay9-d.mail.gandi.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/08 12:37:21 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254770 Archived-At: [ I=E2=80=99ve originally sent this reply using the reply button on the web interface, so it probably ended up as a private reply. Sending it again to the mailing list, hopefully will end up showing up under the correct subthread. Sorry if this somehow inconveniences anybody] On 2020-09-08 19:22 +03, G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp wrote: >> The post actually started not for adding new features, but just to >> change some of our defaults. Actually one thing I don't like about >> doom or spacemacs is the excessive complexity they add and long >> configuration sets. > > Changing defaults is a new feature, an almost definitely breaking one. > >> When I recommend Emacs to any of my students; after a week trying it >> they finally go for VSCode or sublime and they get the work done in an >> hour. > > And that=E2=80=99s a _very_ healthy thing: let them learn stuff using sim= pler, > easier solutions. Let them explore for themselves. If they feel the > need for an extensible editor that is free software, they=E2=80=99ll come= to > Emacs, or Vim, or similar. And frankly, that "similar" category > includes VSCode, because it=E2=80=99s damn good at what it does, and a > legitimate tool for any programmer. > > If your students are going for VSCode, tho, one thing you might want to > do is to direct them to VSCodium instead. Same thing, no telemetry. > >> Actually as mentioned before, the existence of doom emacs, spacemacs >> and all the other configs (some of them more popular than vanilla >> these days) is a proof. > > Of what, exactly? IMO, it=E2=80=99s a proof that Emacs attracts a diverse > community of users, and that Emacs provides a good platform to satisfy > the needs of these users. IMO, that something like Doom or Spacemacs > can / does exist is a proof that Emacs is doing something _right_: > provide a stable, solid, and extensible base for a variety of > experiences. > > > I concur with every single word of Yoni=E2=80=99s post. As I said in ano= ther > email, chasing pretend users is a fruitless endeavour that=E2=80=99ll als= o annoy > the hell out of your actual users. If people aren=E2=80=99t coming to yo= ur > project for what you already have, it=E2=80=99s a _very_ unhealthy situat= ion. > Breakage now implies more breakage later. Nobody wants software that > "breaks the userland". "Never break the userland". -- =C4=B0. G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp / @cadadr / pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427