From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: joakim@verona.se Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:07:41 +0200 Message-ID: <878r9b8b2a.fsf@tanaka.verona.se> References: <83jzsvppv8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28000"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Arthur Miller , emacs-tangents@gnu.org To: chad Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 12 21:08:12 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qg8k7-00071C-Ni for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:08:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qg8jo-0001qB-Hk; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:07:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qg8jm-0001n7-Si for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:07:50 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp.outgoing.loopia.se ([93.188.3.37]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qg8jj-0005aZ-Td for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:07:50 -0400 Original-Received: from s807.loopia.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by s807.loopia.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE2C2FABC6B for ; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:07:43 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from s979.loopia.se (unknown [172.22.191.6]) by s807.loopia.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5222E2AAB2; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:07:43 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from s473.loopia.se (unknown [172.22.191.5]) by s979.loopia.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD6710BC44F; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:07:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amavis.loopia.se Original-Received: from s899.loopia.se ([172.22.191.6]) by s473.loopia.se (s473.loopia.se [172.22.190.13]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id RdEDsnpiFQZi; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:07:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Loopia-Auth: user X-Loopia-User: joakim@alicantealmeria.se X-Loopia-Originating-IP: 193.234.148.196 Original-Received: from tanaka.verona.se (unknown [193.234.148.196]) (Authenticated sender: joakim@alicantealmeria.se) by s899.loopia.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 689A02C8BACE; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:07:42 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (chad's message of "Tue, 12 Sep 2023 14:22:57 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=93.188.3.37; envelope-from=joakim@verona.se; helo=smtp.outgoing.loopia.se X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:1071 Archived-At: chad writes: > Now that we're in -tangets (thanks for doing that, btw)... > > On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 7:57=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii wrot= e: > > [...] And don't be afraid of losing some of the applications and the > documentation -- these should be the least of your worries. [...] > > My own opinion has come around to match Eli's (far more relevant/expert) = on this topic, but in case it helps anyone else: > I think this reflexive desire to keep a strong hold on all the existing e= lisp comes from the long line of emacs clones > like Edwin, Hemlock, climacs, Alpha, and a long list of less well-known a= lternatives. I "lived through" several of these, > and the sense I got from every one I actually tried was that people event= ually fell back to the "real thing" emacs, > largely because it worked (well enough?) and already had some facilities = that were missing in the putative replacement.=20 > > summary: I think it's hard to unlearn this lesson from history > > It's entirely possible that the shift of "typical computing" towards mass= ively multi-core distributed etc. is the final > straw, or at least the high bar that a massively-shared-state-lisp-machin= e can't vault -- while still being good enough > to cross most of the moats we see in everyday usage. It's also possible t= hat there's some adaptation that will arise, > perhaps along the lines of how web workers/service worker threads interac= t with the DOM in the modern browser, that keeps > Emacs going even longer. I remember the days when "Yeah, that will happen= shortly after the release of Emacs 21" was the > in-joke for porcine aeronautics, and we just saw Emacs 29 released, so: i= t could happen. > > I do think that a very early step needs to be "figure out how to handle c= oncurrent analysis and editing across multiple > cores and perhaps machines", but that probably just reflects a bunch of m= y personal interests. Since we are in "tangents" now, I suppose it wont harm if I add some opinions as well. I also tried many different emacsen, and different editors, and always came back to the mother-ship. The thread seemed to focus mostly on things that Emacs doesnt do so well, and not on what Emacs does remarkably well. For instance, the multi-tty feature is fantastic, I use it all the time. You can use emacs on a tiny raspberry, or on a super large machine. There is tramp, and well, the kitchen sink. And emacs is infinitely tweakable, which is very useful. The buffer/window paradigm is really useful. The "new" batch of applications dont do much of the above things, so while of course more visually apealing, they dont add much else(well of course, LSP, and stuff, but emacs has that now as well) So while the thread was about multi-threading, if I had a magic wand to fix emacs things, I would fix that bother me daily. - if I'm connected to an emacs session by ssh, and mistakenly make a cli command dump tens of megabytes of spewage to the shell buffer, I'm in= trouble and cant easily get out of it. I need to open a new ssh session and kill the rampaging cli. This is quite tedious. Would concurrency fix this? - Same for long-lines, this is still not a solved problem. - Gnus refreshes slowly, maybe that could be helped with concurrency, but it could also be helped with more async work in gnus. Anyway, thats my 0.02=E2=82=AC, please ignore and carry on... > > ~Chad > --=20 Joakim Verona joakim@verona.se