when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable

when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable

[Dan Jacobson]

I do find-file and notice i've found the file in the wrong coding
system.

So naturally I go to options>mule>set-coding-system and what do you
know, it's darkened, unselectible right when you need it.

OK, so maybe this is intentional.   If so at least have something that
pops up and tells the user what to do instead.

Yes, this happens in the kind of file that will produce this warning:
   "These default coding systems were tried:
      chinese-iso-8bit-unix chinese-big5
    However, none of them safely encodes the target text.

    Select one of the following safe coding systems:
      raw-text emacs-mule no-conversion" 
-- 
http://jidanni.org/ Taiwan(04)25854780

Re: when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni@dman.ddts.net>
> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.bug
> Date: 18 Jul 2002 10:33:46 +0800
> 
> I do find-file and notice i've found the file in the wrong coding
> system.
> 
> So naturally I go to options>mule>set-coding-system

Wrong move.  You should use "C-x RET c" before "C-x C-f" instead.
That's because the file is already decoded by the time it is
displayed, and so no tinkering with options>mule>set-coding-system
will make any difference as to how it is displayed.

(The reason the options>mule>set-coding-system option is disabled is
probably because Emacs decided the file was in raw-text.)

Re: when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable

[Dan Jacobson]

>> I do find-file and notice i've found the file in the wrong coding
>> system.
>> 
>> So naturally I go to options>mule>set-coding-system

Eli> Wrong move.  You should use "C-x RET c" before "C-x C-f" instead.
Eli> That's because the file is already decoded by the time it is
Eli> displayed, and so no tinkering with options>mule>set-coding-system
Eli> will make any difference as to how it is displayed.

OK, this is exactly what the user needs to know at that point.  Can we
somehow arrange to get your above sentences told to the user when he
goes reaching for that button, instead of just finding, of all the
buttons, amazingly, just the one he thinks he needs has its lights
turned off, closed for business, a dead end, bad luck, "there is
something wrong with me", "I am a bad user".

Eli> (The reason the options>mule>set-coding-system option is disabled is
Eli> probably because Emacs decided the file was in raw-text.)
-- 
http://jidanni.org/ Taiwan(04)25854780

Re: when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable

[Miles Bader]

jidanni@dman.ddts.net (Dan Jacobson) writes:
> "there is something wrong with me", "I am a bad user".

Yeah, but those are _true_...

-Miles
-- 
Next to fried food, the South has suffered most from oratory.
  			-- Walter Hines Page

Re: when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable

[Richard Stallman]

    Eli> Wrong move.  You should use "C-x RET c" before "C-x C-f" instead.
    Eli> That's because the file is already decoded by the time it is
    Eli> displayed, and so no tinkering with options>mule>set-coding-system
    Eli> will make any difference as to how it is displayed.

    OK, this is exactly what the user needs to know at that point.  Can we
    somehow arrange to get your above sentences told to the user when he
    goes reaching for that button, instead of just finding, of all the
    buttons, amazingly, just the one he thinks he needs has its lights
    turned off

I agree that this is something important to do.  I don't see precisely
where or how Emacs would present that information.  In response to
what action or command, when?

Re: when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable

[Dan Jacobson]

Eli> Wrong move.  You should use "C-x RET c" before "C-x C-f" instead.
Eli> That's because the file is already decoded by the time it is
Eli> displayed, and so no tinkering with options>mule>set-coding-system
Eli> will make any difference as to how it is displayed.

notRMS>     OK, this is exactly what the user needs to know at that
notRMS>     point.  Can we somehow arrange to get your above sentences
notRMS>     told to the user when he goes reaching for that button,
notRMS>     instead of just finding, of all the buttons, amazingly,
notRMS>     just the one he thinks he needs has its lights turned off

RMS> I agree that this is something important to do.  I don't see precisely
RMS> where or how Emacs would present that information.  In response to
RMS> what action or command, when?

Well, the simplest thing to do until a better solution is found, is to
have its lights turned back on, but a big balloon message pop if the
user does select it, with the above "Wrong move..." message inside,
suitably rephrased.  
-- 
http://jidanni.org/ Taiwan(04)25854780

Re: when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable

[Eli Zaretskii]

On 29 Jul 2002, Dan Jacobson wrote:

> RMS> I agree that this is something important to do.  I don't see precisely
> RMS> where or how Emacs would present that information.  In response to
> RMS> what action or command, when?
> 
> Well, the simplest thing to do until a better solution is found, is to
> have its lights turned back on, but a big balloon message pop if the
> user does select it, with the above "Wrong move..." message inside,
> suitably rephrased.  

The problem is, it's not really wrong to do that, it just doesn't have 
the effect you thought it would.  Changing the buffer's encoding affects 
the way it will be saved to disk, which is a perfectly valid thing a user 
might need to do.  For example, imagine a file encoded in Latin-1 which 
you'd like to recode so it's in UTF-8.

So it would be wrong to tell users this operation is a mistake, in 
general.

Re: when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable

[Dan Jacobson]

I'm posting here because my posts to emacs-devel bounce because I bet
I am Asian Spam.

>     all I know is the user feels the current file is in the wrong coding
>     system.  he finds options)mule)set-coding-system ... apparently just
>     what he needs, but low and behold, unlike everything else on the menu,
>     it is curiously unselectible, leaving him with nowhere else to turn.
> 
>     Just the command he needs, and it is unselectible.
> 
> If there were a menu item "visit again in new coding system",
> would that make it clear what to do?

There you go.  I guess one doesn't get to idol status for nothing.

RMS has solved the problem.  Add an additional menu item or sub
item...

By the way, my previous golden keystrokes bounced (because I'm Asian
Spam), so here's a replay so that they don't get wasted:

To: rms@gnu.org
Cc: emacs-devel@moderators.isc.org
Subject: Re: when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable
From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni@dman.ddts.net>
Date: 30 Jul 2002 08:46:26 +0800

DJ>     Well, the simplest thing to do until a better solution is found, is to
DJ>     have its lights turned back on, but a big balloon message pop if the
DJ>     user does select it, with the above "Wrong move..." message inside,
DJ>     suitably rephrased.  

RMS> I don't understand that in concrete terms.  Would you please make
RMS> a concrete suggestion?

all I know is the user feels the current file is in the wrong coding
system.  he finds options)mule)set-coding-system ... apparently just
what he needs, but low and behold, unlike everything else on the menu,
it is curiously unselectible, leaving him with nowhere else to turn.

Just the command he needs, and it is unselectible.

If this was microsoft, at least a paperclip would jump up and tell him
what things he might do at this point...

So, make it selectable, triggering the emacs paperclip.  Something,
anything instead of "sorry, the vending machine is out of your
selection, pick another selection".... wait, we don't even get that
(vending machine...) message out of emacs here, just an unlight selection.
-- 
http://jidanni.org/ Taiwan(04)25854780

Re: when options)mule)set-coding-system is unselectable

[Richard Stallman]

    all I know is the user feels the current file is in the wrong coding
    system.  he finds options)mule)set-coding-system ... apparently just
    what he needs, but low and behold, unlike everything else on the menu,
    it is curiously unselectible, leaving him with nowhere else to turn.

    Just the command he needs, and it is unselectible.

If there were a menu item "visit again in new coding system",
would that make it clear what to do?