* English usage bug in bytecomp.el @ 2005-03-07 20:17 Alan Mackenzie 2005-03-07 23:09 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2005-03-07 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Mark a function obsolete with: (make-obsolete 'foo 'bar "21.4") Compile another function which calls `foo'. The following warning appears in the *Compile-Log*: While compiling toplevel forms: ** `foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4; use `bar' instead. . This combination of "is" and "since" is incorrect English usage. Correct is "`foo HAS BEEN an obsolete function since 21.4;". The following patch fixes this. 2005-03-07 Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> * bytecomp.el (byte-compile-obsolete): Correct an English Usage * bug. *** bytecomp-2.161.el Mon Mar 7 19:31:05 2005 --- bytecomp-2.161.acm.el Mon Mar 7 20:02:28 2005 *************** *** 1038,1044 **** (when (nth 2 new))) (byte-compile-set-symbol-position (car form)) (if (memq 'obsolete byte-compile-warnings) ! (byte-compile-warn "`%s' is an obsolete function%s; %s" (car form) (if when (concat " since " when) "") (if (stringp (car new)) (car new) --- 1038,1045 ---- (when (nth 2 new))) (byte-compile-set-symbol-position (car form)) (if (memq 'obsolete byte-compile-warnings) ! (byte-compile-warn "`%s' %s an obsolete function%s; %s" (car form) ! (if when "has been" "is") (if when (concat " since " when) "") (if (stringp (car new)) (car new) -- Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-07 20:17 English usage bug in bytecomp.el Alan Mackenzie @ 2005-03-07 23:09 ` Miles Bader 2005-03-08 8:02 ` Alan Mackenzie 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2005-03-07 23:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > . This combination of "is" and "since" is incorrect English usage. I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly makes sense. -Miles -- Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-07 23:09 ` Miles Bader @ 2005-03-08 8:02 ` Alan Mackenzie 2005-03-08 8:49 ` Nick Roberts ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2005-03-08 8:02 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Hi Miles and Emacs! On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Miles Bader wrote: [Discussion of "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4;"] >> . This combination of "is" and "since" is incorrect English usage. >I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly >makes sense. <Gnashes teeth> Yes, it does make sense and it is regrettably common usage, but it is WRONG. It is something that a native English speaker would never say. In this case, it is just as easy to be correct. When somebody who loves this bastard mess of a language that is English reads something like that, the effects are not nice: First there is shock. Within seconds, shock gives way to disbelief, disbelief to pain, and pain to anger[*]. Finally, anger gives way to an irresistible urge either to string up the writer or to submit a patch. Thank <insert your deity here> the latter is possible with Emacs. And yes, I know all about speaking and writing a foreign language with "unnecessarily" complex rules. I've got the greatest admiration for and sympathy with people who get to grips with English. Please install my patch. [*] Quoted from Lynne Truss's book "Eats, Shoots & Leaves". >-Miles -- Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 8:02 ` Alan Mackenzie @ 2005-03-08 8:49 ` Nick Roberts 2005-03-08 10:24 ` David Kastrup 2005-03-08 9:57 ` Miles Bader ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2005-03-08 8:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: snogglethorpe, emacs-devel, miles > [Discussion of "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4;"] > > >> . This combination of "is" and "since" is incorrect English usage. > > >I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly > >makes sense. > > <Gnashes teeth> > > Yes, it does make sense and it is regrettably common usage, but it is > WRONG. It is something that a native English speaker would never say. > In this case, it is just as easy to be correct. I don't know if it's correct or not but I think it is effective use of English. I think its important to remember that English may not be the first language for many Emacs users. "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4" is concise: it tells the user that foo *is* obsolete and then that it became obsolete in version 21.4. He doesn't have to understand the many forms of past tense that English can have. Nick ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 8:49 ` Nick Roberts @ 2005-03-08 10:24 ` David Kastrup 2005-03-08 11:45 ` Nick Roberts 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2005-03-08 10:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: miles, Alan Mackenzie, snogglethorpe, emacs-devel Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes: > > [Discussion of "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4;"] > > > > >> . This combination of "is" and "since" is incorrect English usage. > > > > >I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly > > >makes sense. > > > > <Gnashes teeth> > > > > Yes, it does make sense and it is regrettably common usage, but it is > > WRONG. It is something that a native English speaker would never say. > > In this case, it is just as easy to be correct. > > I don't know if it's correct or not but I think it is effective use of > English. "efficient" you mean probably . Let us just replace every "is not" and "was not" and "has not" with "ain't". That is also efficient. > I think its important to remember that English may not be the first > language for many Emacs users. "`foo' is an obsolete function since > 21.4" is concise: it tells the user that foo *is* obsolete and then > that it became obsolete in version 21.4. He doesn't have to > understand the many forms of past tense that English can have. We are not talking about whether it is impossible to make sense out of what is written. But I don't see how the non-first language speaker actively gains anything if we switch to a bastardized version of English. We don't require the readers of the manual to write correct English themselves, we just strive to be understandable even for non-native speakers. But I don't see that the correct English usage here would have any detrimental effects. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 10:24 ` David Kastrup @ 2005-03-08 11:45 ` Nick Roberts 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2005-03-08 11:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: miles, Alan Mackenzie, snogglethorpe, emacs-devel > > > > I don't know if it's correct or not but I think it is effective use of > > English. > > "efficient" you mean probably . Let us just replace every "is not" > and "was not" and "has not" with "ain't". That is also efficient. This is a bit surreal! No, I mean effective as in "it conveys the meaning" which is what language is intended for, although it might not impress professors of English. If I had meant efficient, I would have said so. What is efficient English anyway? Using the minimum number of words/letters? > > I think its important to remember that English may not be the first > > language for many Emacs users. "`foo' is an obsolete function since > > 21.4" is concise: it tells the user that foo *is* obsolete and then > > that it became obsolete in version 21.4. He doesn't have to > > understand the many forms of past tense that English can have. > > We are not talking about whether it is impossible to make sense out of > what is written. But I don't see how the non-first language speaker > actively gains anything if we switch to a bastardized version of > English. We don't require the readers of the manual to write correct > English themselves, we just strive to be understandable even for > non-native speakers. But I don't see that the correct English usage > here would have any detrimental effects. If I remember correctly, "has been an obsolete function" is the perfect tense, and suggests a completed action i.e it has been obsolete but what is its status now. It has some ambiguity. Anyway, lets not delude ourselves, the international language is American English, perhaps it also sounds natural on that side of the Atlantic. Nick. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 8:02 ` Alan Mackenzie 2005-03-08 8:49 ` Nick Roberts @ 2005-03-08 9:57 ` Miles Bader 2005-03-08 10:33 ` David Kastrup ` (2 more replies) 2005-03-08 13:08 ` Stefan Monnier 2005-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman 3 siblings, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2005-03-08 9:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel, miles On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:02:35 +0000 (GMT), Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote: > [Discussion of "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4;"] > > >I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly > >makes sense. > > <Gnashes teeth> > > Yes, it does make sense and it is regrettably common usage, but it is > WRONG. It is something that a native English speaker would never say. > In this case, it is just as easy to be correct. Hmm, I'm a native English speaker (and I certainly appreciate fine language), but I don't mind this at all. It simply doesn't register very high on the "feels wrong" scale, though it does a little. I also agree with Nick that the "correct" form is less clear (and requires a funny little twiddly bit in the code). However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less objectionable would be "FOO is an obsolete function (since 21.4)". -Miles -- Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 9:57 ` Miles Bader @ 2005-03-08 10:33 ` David Kastrup 2005-03-08 15:37 ` John S. Yates, Jr. 2005-03-08 16:08 ` Bill Wohler 2005-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2005-03-08 10:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Alan Mackenzie, emacs-devel, miles Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes: > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:02:35 +0000 (GMT), Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote: >> [Discussion of "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4;"] >> >> >I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly >> >makes sense. >> >> <Gnashes teeth> >> >> Yes, it does make sense and it is regrettably common usage, but it is >> WRONG. It is something that a native English speaker would never say. >> In this case, it is just as easy to be correct. > > Hmm, I'm a native English speaker (and I certainly appreciate fine > language), but I don't mind this at all. It simply doesn't register > very high on the "feels wrong" scale, though it does a little. > > I also agree with Nick that the "correct" form is less clear (and > requires a funny little twiddly bit in the code). > > However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less > objectionable would be "FOO is an obsolete function (since 21.4)". This does not help really. If my language sensors are correct, a non-objectionable phrasing might be "As of 21.4, Foo is an obsolete function." But I still don't see that "has been" is something that even a non-native speaker has any possibility of avoiding to see quite a lot, anyhow. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 10:33 ` David Kastrup @ 2005-03-08 15:37 ` John S. Yates, Jr. 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: John S. Yates, Jr. @ 2005-03-08 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw) >"As of 21.4, Foo is an obsolete function." Another alternative: "Foo is an obsolete function. Foo was deprecated (alternatively: declared obsolete) in release 21.4." /john -- John Yates 257 Nashoba Rd. Concord, MA 01742 978 371-4923 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 9:57 ` Miles Bader 2005-03-08 10:33 ` David Kastrup @ 2005-03-08 16:08 ` Bill Wohler 2005-03-08 17:26 ` Andreas Schwab ` (2 more replies) 2005-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Bill Wohler @ 2005-03-08 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes: > However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less > objectionable would be "FOO is an obsolete function (since 21.4)". That's not too bad, although I prefer the "has been" variant. Here is yet another using a fairly simple past tense with a word that might not be known to non-programmers: FOO was deprecated in 21.4 If anyone in this list does not know what deprecated means, please raise your hand. If the word deprecated is not known to all, then: FOO was made obsolete in 21.4 On a different topic, it would be useful if the message indicated a replacement. -- Bill Wohler <wohler@newt.com> http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. Vote Libertarian! If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 16:08 ` Bill Wohler @ 2005-03-08 17:26 ` Andreas Schwab 2005-03-08 21:10 ` Nick Roberts 2005-03-08 22:15 ` Miles Bader 2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Andreas Schwab @ 2005-03-08 17:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Bill Wohler <wohler@newt.com> writes: > On a different topic, it would be useful if the message indicated a > replacement. It does. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 16:08 ` Bill Wohler 2005-03-08 17:26 ` Andreas Schwab @ 2005-03-08 21:10 ` Nick Roberts 2005-03-08 22:15 ` Miles Bader 2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2005-03-08 21:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > That's not too bad, although I prefer the "has been" variant. Here is > yet another using a fairly simple past tense with a word that might > not be known to non-programmers: > > FOO was deprecated in 21.4 > Yes, this a good point. Obsolete generally means that it has been removed from the code cannot be used but the that doesn't appear to be the case here. Deprecated (at least in the programming world/US) means that it can still be used but it will become obsolete shortly. Perhaps the directory emacs/lisp/obsolete should be renamed emacs/lisp/deprecated, make-obsolete-variable -> make-deprecated-variable etc Nick ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 16:08 ` Bill Wohler 2005-03-08 17:26 ` Andreas Schwab 2005-03-08 21:10 ` Nick Roberts @ 2005-03-08 22:15 ` Miles Bader 2005-03-08 22:36 ` Bill Wohler 2005-03-09 16:59 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2005-03-08 22:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:08:21 -0800, Bill Wohler <wohler@newt.com> wrote: > > However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less > > objectionable would be "FOO is an obsolete function (since 21.4)". > > That's not too bad, although I prefer the "has been" variant. Here is > yet another using a fairly simple past tense with a word that might > not be known to non-programmers: The thing is that the version where it was made past tense really isn't that important, but people seem to be focusing on it. I think David's suggestion of "as of" is good, though I think better as a simple replacement for "since" than at the front: FOO is an obsolete function (as of 21.4) [Maybe it really ought to say "emacs version 21.4" but I assume it's also good to keep the message short so it doesn't wrap.] -Miles -- Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 22:15 ` Miles Bader @ 2005-03-08 22:36 ` Bill Wohler 2005-03-09 16:59 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Bill Wohler @ 2005-03-08 22:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> wrote: > The thing is that the version where it was made past tense really > isn't that important Agreed. Maybe we can drop it from the message. Stefan? ;-) -- Bill Wohler <wohler@newt.com> http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. Vote Libertarian! If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 22:15 ` Miles Bader 2005-03-08 22:36 ` Bill Wohler @ 2005-03-09 16:59 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-03-09 16:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: wohler, emacs-devel I think David's suggestion of "as of" is good, though I think better as a simple replacement for "since" than at the front: FOO is an obsolete function (as of 21.4) That looks good. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 9:57 ` Miles Bader 2005-03-08 10:33 ` David Kastrup 2005-03-08 16:08 ` Bill Wohler @ 2005-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman 2005-03-09 9:49 ` David Kastrup 2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-03-09 3:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: acm, miles, emacs-devel However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less objectionable would be How about "FOO is an obsolete function (now and since 21.4)". Or "FOO is an obsolete function (marked obsolete in Emacs 21.4)". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman @ 2005-03-09 9:49 ` David Kastrup 2005-03-09 10:22 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2005-03-09 9:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: acm, snogglethorpe, emacs-devel, miles Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less > objectionable would be > > How about "FOO is an obsolete function (now and since 21.4)". That sounds weird when encountered in the 21.4 release, so one would need to edit this _again_ after 21.4 has been released (do a s/21\.4/22.1/g on this posting so that it makes sense). And actually, it still contains the same grammatical offender, only masked in alternatives. > Or "FOO is an obsolete function (marked obsolete in Emacs 21.4)". "FOO is an obsolete function and has been obsolete since 21.4." Uh, same problem as with your initial proposal: sounds weird in 21.4 itself. How about: "FOO is an obsolete function in version 21.4 and later." -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-09 9:49 ` David Kastrup @ 2005-03-09 10:22 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2005-03-09 10:22 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: acm, emacs-devel, rms, miles On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:49:50 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote: > "FOO is an obsolete function in version 21.4 and later." Your original suggestion of "as of" seems better: "FOO is an obsolete function (as of Emacs 21.4)" Seems simple, correct, very clear, and is just about the smallest change you could make. I think it's good enough that I've gone ahead and and changed it; if people want to continue arguing, I just give up. -Miles -- Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 8:02 ` Alan Mackenzie 2005-03-08 8:49 ` Nick Roberts 2005-03-08 9:57 ` Miles Bader @ 2005-03-08 13:08 ` Stefan Monnier 2005-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman 3 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2005-03-08 13:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: snogglethorpe, emacs-devel, miles > When somebody who loves this bastard mess of a language that is English > reads something like that, the effects are not nice: First there is > shock. Within seconds, shock gives way to disbelief, disbelief to pain, > and pain to anger[*]. Finally, anger gives way to an irresistible urge > either to string up the writer or to submit a patch. Thank <insert your > deity here> the latter is possible with Emacs. I hereby apologize for causing you discomfort and pain and I hope you will keep your anger under control. I'm indeed not a native speaker, but I did know about the "past perfect with for/since" rule (even though it seems that while doing my studies in the US has significantly increased my familiarity and fluency in English it made my grammar significantly more sloppy). My excuse for the mess is that the original message was "foo is obsolete; use bar" and I just added "since XX" without noticing the need for the verb's tense to be adjusted. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el 2005-03-08 8:02 ` Alan Mackenzie ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2005-03-08 13:08 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2005-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman 3 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-03-09 3:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: snogglethorpe, emacs-devel, miles We may as well make the text sound better. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2005-03-09 16:59 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 20+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2005-03-07 20:17 English usage bug in bytecomp.el Alan Mackenzie 2005-03-07 23:09 ` Miles Bader 2005-03-08 8:02 ` Alan Mackenzie 2005-03-08 8:49 ` Nick Roberts 2005-03-08 10:24 ` David Kastrup 2005-03-08 11:45 ` Nick Roberts 2005-03-08 9:57 ` Miles Bader 2005-03-08 10:33 ` David Kastrup 2005-03-08 15:37 ` John S. Yates, Jr. 2005-03-08 16:08 ` Bill Wohler 2005-03-08 17:26 ` Andreas Schwab 2005-03-08 21:10 ` Nick Roberts 2005-03-08 22:15 ` Miles Bader 2005-03-08 22:36 ` Bill Wohler 2005-03-09 16:59 ` Richard Stallman 2005-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman 2005-03-09 9:49 ` David Kastrup 2005-03-09 10:22 ` Miles Bader 2005-03-08 13:08 ` Stefan Monnier 2005-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman
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