From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Fire defun by typing keyword Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 22:59:28 +0100 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: <877gchnsme.fsf@nl106-137-194.student.uu.se> References: <871u33mqj0.fsf@nl106-137-194.student.uu.se> <87zjpjmuhj.fsf@nl106-137-194.student.uu.se> <87k3gmbhjk.fsf@nl106-137-194.student.uu.se> <87d2mdma8f.fsf@nl106-137-194.student.uu.se> <1b9c3e40-fcbf-4759-a5c7-e4494ac5858e@googlegroups.com> <50960452-63dc-4283-8ab3-b505156200ae@googlegroups.com> <87habornym.fsf@nl106-137-194.student.uu.se> <62b2fa06-e106-44b9-9e3d-41b2ab01ef84@googlegroups.com> <87k3gipe99.fsf@nl106-137-194.student.uu.se> <87siv546bl.fsf@castleamber.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1384034415 29350 80.91.229.3 (9 Nov 2013 22:00:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 22:00:15 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 09 23:00:21 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VfGZn-0006gN-Cs for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 09 Nov 2013 23:00:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58428 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VfGZm-0004fq-VC for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 09 Nov 2013 17:00:18 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 100 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: VVbyYd/iFZoeWNmD9i++cQ.user.speranza.aioe.org Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (gnu/linux) X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:X7+WdwwjgVofmN9xEznvc/PZSE8= Mail-Copies-To: never Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:202148 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:94419 Archived-At: John Bokma writes: >> "Look and feel" is just the final polish on the top >> surface. > > You're severely mistaken. Yes, out of context the above might be read as "UIs aren't important". Of course they are. They are very important. That is not the point. The point is if you are into UI design and programming, you should do that by designing and programming... UIs! - *not* do it all over (including all underlying software below the UI), time and again! To what degree that actually happens I don't know but with all those -terminal, -screenshot, etc., around, one is getting suspicious to say the least. >> If configuration is possible, as it always is for any >> good application, it could be left entirely to the >> user. > > A lot of users, including me, prefer that things mostly > out-of-the box. I think that is the completely wrong attitude. It doesn't matter what state you prefer your software to be in, if it is incomplete, you must fix it, if it has shortcomings (as you experience it), you must tweak, configure, etc. Just using stuff as they are, discarding them when they don't meet your expectations, and so on, will *never* bring about any deep knowledge. This will make you a consumer, not a producer. >> "Look and feel" should *never* be the purpose or >> reason for programming > > Same mistake as above. There is a huge difference > between a well-researched user interface and one > tinkered together by a programmer to scratch his own > itch. I've read quite a bit about UI design and I still > make mistakes because I think too often like a > programmer (or: from a testing point of view). No, it is you who are making a mistake. I didn't spent hundreds of hours configuring my applications because I thought interfaces weren't of value. On the contrary, if it weren't for Emacs' configurability, and my own humble efforts, I wouldn't be able to use a computer *at all*. A couple of years ago, my eyes and fingers were in such a state I thought about giving up computing altogether. The Linux VTs, zsh, Emacs, Gnus, and again my own humble efforts changed all that. So I know of the value of interfaces, and that is not what I'm speaking of above. > A good user interface is one that doesn't need to be > configured You should always and everywhere be able to configure *everything*! > Maybe you mean "eye candy"? Still, an application that > looks good gives me pleasure to work with. So in my > case I prefer some eye candy. For example, "syntax > highlighting" was, in my experience, frowned upon years > back; eyecandy, pointless, etc. But I prefer it, and I > think it makes me more productive. Yes, again you misread me (that interfaces aren't important). If you are interested in UI programming, check out my home page [1] and especially my degree work (the chapter "Editor Looks") and the home page on Emacs and Gnus. There are lots of screenshots, too. >> - of many unpleasant words to describe that, "absurd" >> is the most pleasant. Reinvention of the (blue) wheel >> is reinvention of the (red) wheel. > > Our eyes are more sensitive to red, so a red wheel is > more visible in the dark. Yes, that's beside the point, but it is interesting nonetheless. In the degree paper I mentioned, there is a discussion what emotional things colors do communicate (in the context of syntax highlighting). If you read it, please mail me... > Also, you don't want to drive in a car with the > "reinvented" wheels of the 18th century, let alone > with the original invention... That is not reinvention, that is *development*: extending, adapting... I'm not opposed to that, at all. [1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 -- Emanuel Berg, programmer-for-rent. CV, projects, etc at uXu underground experts united: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573