From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1?= =?utf-8?Q?=2FKammer?=) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [PATCH] Add shell-quasiquote. Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:47:26 +0200 Message-ID: <877fmhgtcx.fsf@T420.taylan> References: <87wpuhh15s.fsf@T420.taylan> <562683B9.1060305@yandex.ru> <87fv15gybo.fsf@T420.taylan> <20151020.214835.278236566.wl@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445374060 449 80.91.229.3 (20 Oct 2015 20:47:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:47:40 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Werner LEMBERG Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 20 22:47:39 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Zodoo-0002LW-E5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:47:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47981 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zodoo-0005tp-74 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:47:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52889) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zodoj-0005te-1G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:47:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zodoi-0006vR-20 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:47:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x236.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::236]:35547) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zodoh-0006vL-SA; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:47:31 -0400 Original-Received: by wicll6 with SMTP id ll6so63254033wic.0; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:47:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=gQZ5uvWRt97vAl01GrT1xNF0HZMnrns4eusgq9/KG1g=; b=ERkTEX0UDRaO1tPLkZCXQWP3BhVZdEOxeUD2BFdKi/2xqn/vtGQiAHrWmJzTkztWho NLZrumvv93KpQFHIdNR3rsDGd2zXs4PymwduUYxuAd3SU/n6bM6sjvweE6K7x48nPKtA 0AvLNk2JrxloxALuBMt6VZRHShO+2jxYwsrcvq7gNFnGp1KpoJkmrJTauiRfOq9oYJgz rjJ18lxx1SpW8qeuLPufvWNfVhZcQxc/qmmokpNrCyy/oNFUUwZPtVYXLYJp2CdYqX4E /lzqzEhCHOXpcxSjhuMzAhX9Sr/mXkfyHPkWQy2You3BGP4hu6sBvQ1QTE8Wric0+S0/ GSKA== X-Received: by 10.180.35.163 with SMTP id i3mr6354076wij.80.1445374051342; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from T420.taylan ([2a02:908:c32:4740:221:ccff:fe66:68f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id lb10sm6010625wjc.9.2015.10.20.13.47.27 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:47:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20151020.214835.278236566.wl@gnu.org> (Werner LEMBERG's message of "Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:48:35 +0200 (CEST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::236 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192239 Archived-At: Werner LEMBERG writes: >> I'll leave it to you to guess what the problem is. I've explained >> it in detail multiple times over the last couple days here and in >> the bug report. > > Well, I'm a complete noob regarding this topic, but I think there is a > problem with your perspective. > > There are a couple of *very* experienced developers on this list, > having great a knowledge of not only Emacs but also of other Unix > tools, in particular problems with the various shells. Especially > Paul is quite active here, providing many patches for gnulib, > coreutils, autoconf, and many other projects. > > Your writing insinuates that that they all intentionally don't want to > understand what you are trying to say. Has it ever come to your mind > that it is probably *still you* who failed to express the issue > clearly enough, inspite of your many attempts? Or may there is an > `agree to disagree' situation you have to live with but obviously > cannot. Thanks for your concern, and I agree it seems weird to think that the problem is in such experienced developers, but (genuinely without any intention of sarcasm in this sentence) I know that I'm not delusional or anything of that sort, and a fairly simple and well-defined change I requested seems to not have been understood after having explained it many times, often with very careful and detailed wording, and the only thing I can conclude from that is that I'm simply not being listened to. (Keyword is "safety guarantees", if you're curious.) What also gives me a bit of confidence is that I know at least two also *very* experienced Emacs/Elisp developers, long-timers of the GNU and Emacs communities, who have express a deep disdain towards emacs-devel. And at least one other newcomer who I know also left e-d in a fit of rage a while ago. (Back then I read through the discussion that enraged them and to be honest didn't understand it myself. I think it was a more involved topic than a mere safety guarantee, but maybe also the nature of the over-arching problem here is such that it's mostly only the "victim" who even sees the problem? Not a psychologist here.) Worse, there seems to be a big split in the Emacs community, and among some parts of it, emacs-devel is subject to regular ridicule, which I find disheartening, since it's *the* place in which the development happens. When I came here a couple days ago I tried to be as optimistic as I could, and I'm generally pretty thick-skinned too, but my experience in this thread felt like a sort of psychological torture. :-) After that I stopped finding it funny to be jokingly called insane by someone for even *wanting* my Elisp packages in GNU ELPA. Among the swathes of people who feel disdain towards emacs-devel, I'm probably just one of the few who are stupid enough to spend such amounts of time and energy arguing, and/or blunt enough to just go forth and claim that there is a very serious behavioral problem with some people. I've probably also made an ass of myself in some ways, and most people want to avoid that of course. If it weren't for these reasons, one would probably see threads like this happening more often on this list. (I will strain myself not to argue any further by the way. No need to respond to this mail if you don't want. I would rather stop now.) Taylan