From: Vitalie Spinu <spinuvit@gmail.com>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Removing prog-indentation-context
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 16:45:12 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <877fgqef3r.fsf@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <ad6222e0-fcd0-73d6-5bce-913190d789b1@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Fri, 25 Mar 2016 02:53:31 +0200")
I think the third element of prog-indentation-context is unlikely to be used by
major-modes anyways. Firstly due to inherent complexity of the concept, secondly
due to undefined, multi-mode specific, semantics of what to do with those
spans/chunks.
In any case, multi-mode engines can ignore prog-indentation-context. My bet is
that they will always do so, at least because there is no reliable way to
identify modes which use it and modes which don't.
Vitalie
>> On Fri, Mar 25 2016 02:53, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> On 03/24/2016 08:55 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> FWIW, I think it's a mistake to remove it. We need to move forward on
>> multi-mode support, and even if prog-indentation-context is not "the
>> right way" (I doubt there is such a thing anyway),
> Are you against removing it in Emacs 25.1 in particular (but retaining it, for
> now, on master)? We don't include support for it even in the built-in major
> modes, save one. And python-mode doesn't support the more controversial third
> element. The built-in antlr-mode doesn't use it either, even though it was
> supposed to be the main beneficiary.
> It's silly to expect third-party authors to adopt it when we haven't done so
> ourselves.
> By that measure, prog-indentation-context has failed, at least for inclusion in
> the upcoming release.
>> adapting some major
>> modes to it will most likely not be wasted time, because it will most
>> likely make it easier to adapt those modes to whichever other approach
>> we may switch to in some future.
> Respectfully, I more disagree than agree. If we put aside the PREVIOUS-CHUNKS
> element, we have two elements left:
> - (START . END). Yes, making modes use `prog-widen' instead of `widen' is a good
> change, but it's a trivial search-replace. There's not much benefit in doing it
> in advance, or waiting for third-party code to catch up, etc. The proposed
> alternative: hard widen limits. If it's adopted, it'll make using prog-widen
> simply unnecessary.
> - FIRST-COLUMN. The proposed alternative: prog-indentation-function that returns
> a column number. If we choose this one, it's likely to result in a rather
> natural code transformation in modes adopting it. It's also a different one that
> what we'd make to use FIRST-COLUMN, at least if we take smie and js as examples.
>> More importantly, I don't think we'll ever agree on what should be done
>> in this respect because we'll only know what works and what doesn't
>> *after* we install it and make it "the official way".
> Why? The advancement prog-indentation-context offers is rather minimal for new
> multi-mode packages to crop up overnight. And even if they would, they could
> just as well test their changes using the master branch (we do have a certain
> fraction of users continually building from it, even if they don't participate
> in the development).
> On the other hand, you have maintainers of the two active multi-mode packages
> (polymode more than mmm-mode) right here, in this discussion. And we're both
> capable of building Emacs from master, as well as implementing features that
> depend on it. That must be true for Christopher as well.
>> The "run with it" part will hopefully help align the
>> various major modes, thus making it easier for a second candidate to
>> make further progress, and so on and so forth.
> Yes, well, it didn't, so far.
> And there are better ways to evaluate an API proposal, such as asking for
> patches that add support for all of its parts, in advance.
> If the demand for multi-mode support is less than we'd hope (resulting in fewer
> or slower patches), it can well incubate on a feature branch.
> In the meantime, the basic needs of the web development crowd are being served
> by web-mode (which is not an actual multi-mode, and would likely not benefit
> from features discussed here). So it's not like a lot of people's is at a
> standstill because of our indecision.
>> At least, that was the reason why I decided to go with
>> prog-indentation-context. It was not because I thought it was The Right
>> Way, the final word on the matter.
> Emacs's development cycles are long, and backward compatibility promise is
> significant. I don't want to get into situation with multiple blessed solutions,
> all inferior in some way, all with spotty support in existing code.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2016-03-25 15:45 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 62+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <20160322022539.16038.77264@vcs.savannah.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <E1aiC0q-0004DL-40@vcs.savannah.gnu.org>
2016-03-22 12:08 ` [Emacs-diffs] widen-limits c331b66: Implement buffer-widen-limits functionality Stefan Monnier
2016-03-22 19:44 ` Vitalie Spinu
2016-03-22 19:56 ` Drew Adams
2016-03-22 22:42 ` Vitalie Spinu
2016-03-23 0:44 ` Drew Adams
2016-03-23 7:16 ` Andreas Röhler
2016-03-23 11:58 ` Vitalie Spinu
2016-03-23 13:02 ` Andreas Röhler
2016-03-23 14:17 ` Vitalie Spinu
2016-03-23 15:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-03-23 17:24 ` Andreas Röhler
2016-03-23 17:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-03-23 18:53 ` Andreas Röhler
2016-03-23 21:57 ` Drew Adams
2016-03-23 22:13 ` Vitalie Spinu
2016-03-23 23:03 ` Drew Adams
2016-03-24 3:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-03-24 12:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-24 15:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-03-24 18:55 ` Removing prog-indentation-context (was: [Emacs-diffs] widen-limits c331b66: Implement buffer-widen-limits functionality) Stefan Monnier
2016-03-25 0:53 ` Removing prog-indentation-context Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-25 1:29 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-25 2:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-03-25 11:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-26 22:29 ` John Wiegley
2016-03-28 1:03 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-25 15:45 ` Vitalie Spinu [this message]
2016-03-28 21:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-28 22:08 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-03-28 22:55 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-28 23:24 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-03-28 1:03 ` [Emacs-diffs] widen-limits c331b66: Implement buffer-widen-limits functionality Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-24 3:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-03-23 17:14 ` Andreas Röhler
2016-03-24 0:03 ` Vitalie Spinu
2016-03-24 0:37 ` Drew Adams
2016-03-24 2:36 ` Vitalie Spinu
2016-03-24 13:53 ` Drew Adams
2016-03-24 13:57 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-24 14:31 ` Drew Adams
2016-03-24 14:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-03-24 15:13 ` Drew Adams
2016-03-24 15:20 ` Stefan Monnier
2016-03-24 7:00 ` Andreas Röhler
2016-03-23 14:29 ` Drew Adams
2016-03-23 21:16 ` A vision for multiple major modes [was: Re: [Emacs-diffs] widen-limits c331b66:] Alan Mackenzie
2016-03-23 21:58 ` Vitalie Spinu
2016-03-24 17:44 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-03-24 20:43 ` Vitalie Spinu
2016-03-23 22:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-24 18:38 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-03-24 20:22 ` Vitalie Spinu
2016-03-25 0:11 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-27 12:09 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-03-27 22:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-03-29 0:07 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-04-01 1:15 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-04-05 16:29 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-04-05 22:52 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-04-18 21:32 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-03-28 13:00 ` Filipp Gunbin
2016-03-25 18:20 ` Phillip Lord
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