From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2018 18:30:49 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <877ek1ql6u.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87k1o1a06q.fsf@russet.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536078996 1977 195.159.176.226 (4 Sep 2018 16:36:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 16:36:36 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 04 18:36:32 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fxEJb-0000Qf-IV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 18:36:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51756 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxELh-0003Ff-U6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 12:38:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42085) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxEK2-0007vY-Dc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 12:37:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxEK1-0003r5-Gb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 12:36:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p02-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5302::6]:18200) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxEK1-0003pV-7v; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 12:36:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536079016; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=/aUY6aOyLIm8KlrnT5hS/p5cQLu8mNmObyZznwgkt4o=; b=BvdbIDtvHh8Ql792W/Pq1VRwuKbxuRrzcKwPUmrCgFx/LXGmic5nPitz32YUT+21iE eHbfFSZEE+mRCCT3znSSv7xumF4qQFsvsQErdjwQR9LixH4+y/LRqLMlkSB0ImQJy1UU O7/xt3chAbT6xAf+2F9JBIPBxlXmAYtZtYAP26yKRGyZi+KestG5R5+kfWyd7KCboGGS vFsLoh+aa3joN6Bad9ZcOIg6fbB5yROd9d8Xsd35BuJ3sd3rZhFDOAIhrKfme/5UK4Cz uYMkdUzs9GSQj8Z4FyDevHNGyfHqWYgMaRz5sH4cx1L71vAt6+v5u89irAZoypfCRAr8 lDsA== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u84Ga11VV (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Tue, 4 Sep 2018 18:36:01 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fxEJ7-00026r-27; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 18:36:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87k1o1a06q.fsf@russet.org.uk> (Phillip Lord's message of "Tue, 04 Sep 2018 14:58:53 +0200") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5302::6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229242 Archived-At: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) writes: > Personally, I would like to ditch all the "how to move around" with > keys stuff -- this scares most people to hell, because they think that > they need to learn this to do something that they already know how to > do these things. right The current tutorial is more suited to drive people away than anything else. Who knows what a META or an EDIT key is? And who cares? Even after almost 30 years of getting used to them, I'm finding notations like 'C-x ret f' or 'M-w' very confusing. How does that belong into a tutorial? People might use C-v to copy something rather than to scroll. They will use the cursor keys and PgUp and PgDown to move around. What are the didactic purposes of having added so many blank lines? Then when you do go ahead and hold down C-v as instructed, you suddenly find yourself somewhere close to the end of the tutorial. It only takes a second for that with 'emacs -q' (and my default of 'xset r rate 250 60'). What is the user supposed to do then? It's good to explain key bindings, but not like that at the beginning of a tutorial when 99.9999% of the users do not still use keyboards that don't have cursor keys. The ones who do probably have found their ways of dealing with it. Your tutorial even explains what Emacs is and gives some history. That is a much more welcoming start. > In terms of advanced issues, my thought was to enable tutorial > extensions to go into ELPA and then have a navigational structure. Maybe several tutorials would be better, like one covering what Emacs is (nowadays that may be a good idea), one covering the first steps and others covering the installation of packages after users have aquired some understanding of what packages are. My first step with 'emacs -q' would be to make the menu fonts larger. As much as I like monospace fonts, the typewriter font used for the text was *really ugly* even 30 years ago. One look at Emacs with this font might turn most people away before they start reading anything.