From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 12:34:16 -0500 Message-ID: <877dwwezfr.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <87lflcg0k9.fsf@red-bean.com> <0f1cd319-fa8c-4453-b909-fdd36f337906@default> <87zh9scdf8.fsf@warpmail.net> <24271.60155.724466.802235@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="49823"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: rms@gnu.org, andreas.roehler@online.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org, excalamus@tutanota.com, philip@warpmail.net, drew.adams@oracle.com To: "T.V Raman" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 28 19:35:39 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jeMRP-000CrN-4X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 19:35:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40372 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jeMRO-0007s1-63 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 13:35:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52522) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jeMQC-0006DE-3z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 13:34:24 -0400 Original-Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:33106) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jeMQA-0007FW-TW; Thu, 28 May 2020 13:34:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=oTnp9iYFPAii+8faMfBpWPfoTKzhv9JAkCr42DFQJt4=; t=1590687262; x=1591896862; b=SYgu6QijhW1pyY77gBaFgs0P5Iu1oymHKaTJ1m+G7/atytgYQrkMl/4qgfBbtrFgfJmgYg4+5I 3ujLMeFHR8EkUcxVn/zdQzK5y+EDCbusMMB6hJG6Nvclo62vF4Iq4+B50QD+vqtspFUdnCW20XvRm a/rQ6qsWjHeMROj0jq4EJ27B4D+ZHL/bnIoER2RMFuAfVbHgXyw6SKolFBO31lTU7/YWnDoOBQraz L6zs7LHWuoLVEg+XCckTfhecn6udNVE//Xo14NwsKa49HyfdMKBKIe5tAmtKGiA9jWDaIERYDGDrs srSsJq9PobOllo2jkF9vSyBuEK9Vxc/vdscKA==; Original-Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:34520 helo=floss) by newsp.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jeMQ6-00086n-0G; Thu, 28 May 2020 17:34:18 +0000 In-Reply-To: <24271.60155.724466.802235@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> (T. V. Raman's message of "Thu, 28 May 2020 09:46:51 -0700") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=45.79.25.59; envelope-from=kfogel@red-bean.com; helo=newsp.red-bean.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/28 13:19:49 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251565 Archived-At: On 28 May 2020, T.V Raman wrote: >emacs kbd commands -- and other well-designed ergonomic systems, eg >vi's h,j,k,l for navigation are better thought of as muscle >memory. The mnemonics are useful to learn, yes, but given the weird >layout of the qwerty keyboard, rigidly sticking to mnemonics often >leads to non-ergonomic keybindings. Amen to what T.V. says here. Often, when people say that keybindings should be "intuitive", they mean something like "there should be some connection between a plausible English-language description of what the keybinding does and the letters involved in the keybinding itself". But such language/key associations are only useful to newcomers anyway. After all, there is nothing about the word "quit" that inherently suggests its meaning -- it's just that those who have learned English have learned what that word means. Similarly, those who have learned the language of Emacs know that C-g means the same thing (well, something very similar). Even independently of keyboard layout (mine is not QWERTY) this kind of intuitiveness is of questionable value. It *does* help newcomers somewhat, but if used as an overriding principle it can result in an overly sparse keybinding space or in problematic physical combinations like single-finger hurdles. >So it's always a choice --- does one wish to create a system that is >"easy to learn" but painful to use, or one that "a little harder to >learn" with the benefit of being extremely efficient in the >long-run. I still think VI's nav keys are one of the best choices I've >seen from an ergonomics point of view, but completely "unintuitive" >for whatever "intuitive" means. Agreed. Vi's default navigation keybindings are, frankly, better than Emacs' (or at least they are on a QWERTY keyboard). It also takes people a long time to learn them. (I'm not suggesting Emacs change its default here: too many people have learned the existing way, the efficiency gain is not so huge anyway, and other bits of Emacs have been built around the assumptions of those default navigational keybindings so there's no telling what full effects of such a switch would be at this point.) Best regards, -Karl