From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yoni Rabkin Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs packages, GitHub and software freedom Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 14:48:27 -0400 Message-ID: <877d4q2i2s.fsf@rabkins.net> References: <875yka4b91.fsf@disroot.org> <87y1x62vic.fsf@rabkins.net> <87v8sa2p26.fsf@disroot.org> <8335fe6wfe.fsf@gnu.org> <87h73u2k5u.fsf@disroot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26729"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1.90 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , bozhidar@batsov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Akib Azmain Turja Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 06 21:18:34 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o9AXh-0006nY-MK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 21:18:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55182 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o9AXf-00024g-WD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 15:18:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46486) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o9A4g-0005P9-WF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 14:48:35 -0400 Original-Received: from smtprelay0010.hostedemail.com ([216.40.44.10]:3480 helo=relay.hostedemail.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o9A4f-0001yV-4y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2022 14:48:34 -0400 Original-Received: from omf10.hostedemail.com (a10.router.float.18 [10.200.18.1]) by unirelay01.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C164660B6B; Wed, 6 Jul 2022 18:48:31 +0000 (UTC) Original-Received: from [HIDDEN] (Authenticated sender: yoni@rabkins.net) by omf10.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 02A7430; Wed, 6 Jul 2022 18:48:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Ethics: Use GNU In-Reply-To: <87h73u2k5u.fsf@disroot.org> (Akib Azmain Turja's message of "Thu, 07 Jul 2022 00:03:25 +0600") X-Stat-Signature: xs7xhsdofmrmmde8j4w6mhqyhcd3auup X-Rspamd-Server: rspamout01 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 02A7430 X-Session-Marker: 796F6E69407261626B696E732E6E6574 X-Session-ID: U2FsdGVkX1/NnHBxemLko6+YEi2ps1edwKl1izWnfg8= X-HE-Tag: 1657133308-417947 Received-SPF: none client-ip=216.40.44.10; envelope-from=yoni@rabkins.net; helo=relay.hostedemail.com X-Spam_score_int: -8 X-Spam_score: -0.9 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FORGED_SPF_HELO=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:291913 Archived-At: Akib Azmain Turja writes: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>> From: Akib Azmain Turja >>> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 22:17:37 +0600 >>> >>> "Bozhidar Batsov" writes: >>> >>> > I think that's a very binary view of GitHub - it might be non-free, >>> > but given the huge community it has amassed, it's almost suicidal for >>> > projects to leave it, as they'd be reducing their contributor-base >>> > significantly. Projects that are hosted outside of GitHub get way >>> > less contributions and I don't think the Emacs users would benefit >>> > from this. I know that the people in FSF care a lot about freedom, but >>> > I care more about building the best Emacs packages possible, even I >>> > have to make some ideological compromises from time to time. >>> >>> This looks similar to saying, "It's suicidal to not use Copilot, because >>> without it you have to do the programming yourself and decrease your >>> productivity." >>> >>> Emacs, GCC, Guix, EMMS and many other projects use Savannah, and there's >>> thousands of other popular projects, including some of the most >>> successful ones, that are not using GitHub. Are they falling behind? >>> >>> Your statement is contradicting your own blog post: "Firefox is the Only >>> Alternative".[1] >>> >>> However, I must agree that projects on GitHub gets more activity. But >>> that's because most of the developers use (i.e. used by) that. And >>> that's why more people join GitHub, they are forced. We must break this >>> cycle. >>> >>> > Love it or hate it, GitHub helped a lot for the revival of the Emacs >>> > package ecosystem. Especially when you compare this to the days of >>> > EmacsWiki and SourceForge. >>> >>> Just like saying, "Windows has made using a computer easy, so I won't >>> discourage people from using it." >>> >>> > I wouldn't take any steps to discourage package maintainers from >>> > using it. >>> >>> This way you are just worsening the situation. (But you obviously have >>> the freedom to do that.) To increase the "contributor-base" outside >>> GitHub, we have to convince maintainers to move away from GitHub. >> >> Guys, this is quickly becoming off topic here. Although the Subject >> says "Emacs packages", the discussion has long ago ceased to be about >> that, and you are now discussing GitHub, SourceForge, Savannah >> hosting, etc. Would you mind taking this to emacs-tangents? >> >> Thanks. > > Sorry for that. But the only thing I ask in this thread is what to do > with GNU ELPA packages on unethical GitHub? It's considered > unacceptable for hosting any free software (including GNU software) by > the Free Software Foundation. Exactly, which is why I answered about Emms... an Emacs package. Is there a mailing list to discuss the larger Emacs package world, as opposed to Emacs proper? -- "Cut your own wood and it will warm you twice"