From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 13:36:28 +0800 Message-ID: <877cpfybhf.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ledwx7sh.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24099"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Arthur Miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 28 07:37:38 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qaUwS-00062g-HF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 07:37:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaUvi-0003kd-Jv; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 01:36:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaUvf-0003kD-T0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 01:36:47 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic312-25.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.206]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaUvb-0000Cr-S4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 01:36:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1693201001; bh=m10buxpZ2uFpaHwVLEHKMovQsPAt5JUkNOHwxiE8T5U=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=bPhzTPfOK2FgVVq7uLju6oXXi8sFYu6LV4FKQWQlEcaWV54XRDEkTcIqEebhEdPAeHCSSVs4Y4cTOtAaIYEeiz+6qLdv07mKYeaYBT9XY/9C7WEyjowOJvLiK74cg+Ms90iUNTslGRqPry3RCS0TZIg1gG1VLaBb1GAlQ2T8C1jjKk7P5ZMWLsMyIgwz9mlpFz1fjYaNNvvHaKmU4tKNq9dCI02OUpMUb0Rqn49V1oqk78lkmgP9oXg1NGCvWX4hlCqF9oQXDgdFB/soQ/CBeECDwbP9U56WSkhsG0Ynjue2wWSL5Bkmxr/IVPWMrqxRDzVVCqoBBaqZH2Bb7hCwyQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1693201001; bh=lPmpFQhTd9LL01qm9/aXt6/2Mn5fRsK90F9ymVOglPs=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=ejf2XpIH6acJJl/n3LSmSrWCfBRpVSW6gU093QfosDUGUBlhmjUFBibnNzao+v0JwqVsEzgrhK/ZY7TDWEtZj7RQyl5W845msW82EEOjMgfQ+ImJFK/kKhhYaZ3NejGYx9g0AfALjSw6z4OUxl2xjperuMeWvWofKwgIYRALLFarf248kss//Zo+XzRjC/RiyiQIgUWLL/2CSoDH2M0DIiNZdT1yGn2HnX2MYjToEmVy2vj8ZjhwJ8+OV1gP4wPuncOMTbgx6lkizf0ldkofhv4gvA/+hAT5SSk/C7uLdCAMDp/xsRmKgy7WytU43yW15t/310PhSHlbfI8UAktwLA== X-YMail-OSG: rYHwksQVM1knR6CZCNpNtxi1l8FS96NkP71uv.uPWlwmsixsn7ef8oPo67bAzLe JwIpAoEr2BzeD_nW0fXvh.flhBA4E4s0dWwqZypPkubdaMPA8u8DcbP8v0hDlsdun9Vzk22Ol6Cb m_0NUCJqpbbyuWzf.dz0.KqkeaMjB3SWviMMNtdzCFsmBBmClcoAB6JjV4M1Tz0NmyRxDOF8HE0r 0bswDv9QqZ5spoUNsoKpjhw.Hq1RX23r89y2eiexUFo7uoLrXvxOwq.F4KSDljHK4pToTSNe8zVQ zXVY1lSgqZzakrN6VHjArszPTHYmZMYlN2n274CwRmKg4_wiJF2snyWtWmRIm87xsJh0DCQPyUEj 8p2LVuYAQdLJHJIdlJsGo0fj_KRNGyfQt6JmwpbGQ4t_dxV5EUwofr5d27Jh5wZ0MGbmF1ryXXIt GUDFZ8i59zgRvdvzNs0pytLM7yiZEwdf5SpBDDTeM7iI.tvhXEzNTTjv.NNB6EgipkOxzPJFELzH wMziDN1uwPkPYoyXhJWtkFMQ3tRz23r4eeqoX1KUjI.qjRdvAzK2Lu2fgeFVDXvLOxZOsbep4PYA 0qmgzSCCTtAem139KaL2ZCfO5MQtyw0WhyGEMblCs0pHHnYEHhi22ztPtyrGW3XOEJyIDrhAtAg9 IA8umoiLeVkMYjeuqqF6Hws.lG3ZDhH0ZCyuG1JIyw2sZ1Th6Azp.bIWFYupPLkeIYfs.mtU8L1w CYPL9gfrI0qcmD7PCUTjlTl85myVt3ItLn74nhGxjVfNBYQUrl46Rb4l.iPJqy.d0eESCgkY7Vfr v56Zb81mYVhh_FxfF6JLdAWRAxqolZUT8FKiOcIrbN X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: d9c2d2e2-458d-4ef4-ad86-b990084a91e6 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 05:36:41 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-69654d8bd-d8v2r (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b86ad8e7a5a954780ede8fd462c2ac09; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 05:36:34 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Arthur Miller's message of "Mon, 28 Aug 2023 06:53:39 +0200") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21763 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.191.206; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic312-25.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309403 Archived-At: Arthur Miller writes: > In which way is it "the perfect antithesis" to my standpoint, and what > is my standpoint? That Emacs must be rewritten from the drawing board to leverage multiprocessor operation. > If you wrote: > > "where the only form of ``interlocking'' **is**", > > than it would certainly be a "perfect anthithesis", but since you are > using the term *was* it means it *is no more*, a past tense, something > that has changed, and change is what I have suggested. Multiple organizations took Unix and independently transformed it into what it is today: CMU, Novell, Sun, and of course the many volunteers who orchestrate the development of the free BSD systems. What fundamental issues (aside from manpower and time, of course) impede Emacs from undergoing the same transformation? The Unix experience indicates that this is well-trodden ground. > I think you are missunderstanding what I am saying: I am saying that > design needs to be changed; and the other thing is that I am suggesting > to rewrite the core API in CL instead of C, since you will get all those > things that constitute the Lisp Machine out for free; a better garbage > collector, a better threading, and better Lisp that are people are often > asking for. Of course you can implement all that stuff in C as well, it > just that it means redoing work that other people has done elsewhere. Last I checked, none of the popular Common Lisp systems supported MS-DOS or ran satisfactorily on Android, nor was Common Lisp an especially well known language. There is a reason Emacs is written in C, and why its present design has endured for so long: it is portable, it is reasonably fast, and it is a subject familiar to all programmers. Other Lisp systems aren't panaceas either: rewritten in Common Lisp or not, the present Emacs design will still require interlocking to operate safely in a multiprocessor environment. Ergo, such a rewrite will only compound the effort needed to produce a hypothetical ``Lockmacs'' (so to speak) with the additional pains required to rewrite Emacs in a new language, and one very few of the present maintainers are well versed in at that.