From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Xiyue Deng Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:00:42 -0800 Message-ID: <877clpu6j9.fsf@debian-hx90.lan> References: <87v89buhpl.fsf@debian-hx90.lan> <83sf4e34s8.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0jytm58.fsf@debian-hx90.lan> <83a5qm2u8v.fsf@gnu.org> <87fs0ducme.fsf@debian-hx90.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="21905"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 67669-done@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 07 21:02:07 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rBKZS-0005RO-EE for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 21:02:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rBKZE-00072R-CZ; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 15:01:52 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rBKZB-00071w-MR for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 15:01:50 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rBKZB-0007nP-EU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 15:01:49 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBKZN-0006hH-UN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 15:02:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Xiyue Deng Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 20:02:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 67669 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 67669-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D67669.170197926625654 (code D ref 67669); Thu, 07 Dec 2023 20:02:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 67669-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Dec 2023 20:01:06 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43197 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBKYT-0006fh-TE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 15:01:06 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x435.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::435]:50215) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBKYQ-0006f4-JQ for 67669-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 15:01:04 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x435.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6ce32821a53so812343b3a.0 for <67669-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:00:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1701979244; x=1702584044; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hAelL39UO7D4Tl6JbKXz3rIxc6xeojoZsPwuGCGmcYo=; b=cuNS8v2Y85I6Z2vXYt8c9C4TMSrRbfP/mHJte1mWIEmnCEXrnELa17rreDAKFxO8hY 4GQwxbt3kzDVrvixjZ7YoX9JwFzNJri2L9QOP+OW/zNHxBU4ygzWZZUATx7WXsH58eD4 Yn8EKG0LymEIaqEecWa1xmNNBxF0WlZw2GnEpp7p0Dg9boPg4sOXrVY4Uj4AV9OjrmI5 UVcD9qO6pnb1vIEwAz9/QgTPerYbh4wJfbeAOOJc/NRF1i6sEscsh7fGdNPhTN448hkQ lfHYBsCpEqyWYS7LZ6RipJMxRaR7RbGPH8CdXeXevh89Beid1lo9+q9b2EErU/M8BKQS WgGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1701979244; x=1702584044; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=hAelL39UO7D4Tl6JbKXz3rIxc6xeojoZsPwuGCGmcYo=; b=FFx2V0LSDkG4B93eJtXDxv/9mfRZV+voA52KlR+w8qMtNPRkjlJoRjeWNLD642y+Zd 476ZCqyzlXzK0uu+hf7eVh8IxqtggQj2lDDh+jM1Sve1958AHAganEPbOnnvDbkfCAKB +KYQmja21iv+g5cLegti1pchAKCVa5Hn1Xrh4szTiI4SHSRX1dY/VAhgfFPpMZz+xvDc lg7N7wSjZ4d628C97en6pZM4WNSht7fb/7R/o/cMpLFXuNP7dtHSTlyXSznlnNELlhVD CZh/LLlVIniis4+YZEXOen7VBvlQ0A93u6kJs7cWaEVQ2LsnINUIrYCcQLVidPQTGOW+ tgrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxUQLyYnVrQ4MWYuw4G74kLaVej110mBxUDZsAIIlqp/wS0jXXC OtbeRObyrRJWGdGkiaYEeunzgpDS9Z/WRw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEKG4HqX1vTqBiaW9vMU6M+UDI/JYTl7eY6GxM1s8Acb6r6DuqYNCBfsG5m4Z8ZGWJO25wJGg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:a29:b0:6c4:cf33:cbe8 with SMTP id p41-20020a056a000a2900b006c4cf33cbe8mr3562856pfh.6.1701979243594; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:00:43 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from debian-hx90 (2603-8000-a400-0cdc-93f0-c81c-5fa0-c77c.res6.spectrum.com. [2603:8000:a400:cdc:93f0:c81c:5fa0:c77c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g4-20020a056a000b8400b006ce5bb61a60sm168909pfj.35.2023.12.07.12.00.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:00:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:37:30 +0000") X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:275702 Archived-At: Hi Drew, Drew Adams writes: >> I quite like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side >> effects, > > More clearly, `when' and `unless' (not `if', which is general - no > special suggestion) are used to suggest (to humans) that they're used > _only_ to perform side effects. With this convention, code shouldn't > depend on their (always `nil') return value. > >> whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions. > > That too isn't really the convention (though it is what's said in that emacs.SE answer). > > What should be said is that you use `and' and `or' when _the return value matters_, i.e., when it's used somewhere. > > That does _not_ preclude the use of `and' and `or' to perform side > effects. It's simply that the _return value matters_. Unlike > `progn', the (Boolean) return value of each of their "steps" (sexps) > determines whether subsequent ones are evaluated. Agreed here. I was quoting the SE answer for the "pure function" part, but indeed I also think what matters is whether we use the results. > > I've added another answer to the emacs.SE question you cited: > > https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/79744/105 > > But as you correctly noted, such conventions are a question of personal (or group) coding style. Lisp doesn't care or recognize any such meaning. Also agreed. And I've since closed this. Thanks for the discussion! -- Xiyue Deng