Blog post

Blog post

[Eshel Yaron]

Hi Emacs,

I recently wrote a post on my blog that criticized a certain development
in Emacs, and I think I owe some people here an apology, in particular,
Eli and Thierry.  I never expected that rant to spread so widely
(somebody posted it on HN IIUC), and I was wrong to be so harsh.  I'm sorry.

I hope to continue contributing to Emacs and its community, and to keep
such ranting to myself.


Regards,

Eshel

Re: Blog post

[Christopher Dimech]

Ranting exclusively to oneself, without any external input or perspective is problematic.
Without external feedback or differing viewpoints, it's challenging to gain a realistic
perspective on the problem being ranted about.  Ultimately leading to unexamined positions
without the benefit of alternative viewpoints.  Without external communication you will get
frustrated and isolated. Sharing with others is healthy, providing potential solutions if you
are correct in your analysis.

----- Christopher Dimech
Administrator General - Chilkat Design Build - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
bestow.

In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !

https://www.gnu.org     https://www.fsf.org/


> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 7:09 PM
> From: "Eshel Yaron" <me@eshelyaron.com>
> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Blog post
>
> Hi Emacs,
>
> I recently wrote a post on my blog that criticized a certain development
> in Emacs, and I think I owe some people here an apology, in particular,
> Eli and Thierry.  I never expected that rant to spread so widely
> (somebody posted it on HN IIUC), and I was wrong to be so harsh.  I'm sorry.
>
> I hope to continue contributing to Emacs and its community, and to keep
> such ranting to myself.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Eshel
>
>

Re: Blog post

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1275 bytes --]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> From: "Eshel Yaron"
>> I recently wrote a post on my blog that criticized a certain development
>> in Emacs, and I think I owe some people here an apology, in particular,
>> Eli and Thierry.  I never expected that rant to spread so widely
> Ranting exclusively to oneself, without any external input or perspective is problematic.
> Without external feedback or differing viewpoints, it's challenging to gain a realistic
> perspective on the problem being ranted about.  Ultimately leading to unexamined positions
> without the benefit of alternative viewpoints.  Without external communication you will get
> frustrated and isolated. Sharing with others is healthy, providing potential solutions if you
> are correct in your analysis.

So maybe the solution would rather be: if you’re frustrated, first enjoy
a good meal (that’s good for the mood ☺), then say politely inside the
community what feels like a problem to you.

My personal experience is that almost every time I grew sarcastic or
ranted, I hit the wrong people … (and had to write an excuse, hoping
that they would still be listening).

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 1125 bytes --]

Re: Blog post

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 8:30 PM
> From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Eshel Yaron" <me@eshelyaron.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Blog post
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> > From: "Eshel Yaron"
> >> I recently wrote a post on my blog that criticized a certain development
> >> in Emacs, and I think I owe some people here an apology, in particular,
> >> Eli and Thierry.  I never expected that rant to spread so widely
> > Ranting exclusively to oneself, without any external input or perspective is problematic.
> > Without external feedback or differing viewpoints, it's challenging to gain a realistic
> > perspective on the problem being ranted about.  Ultimately leading to unexamined positions
> > without the benefit of alternative viewpoints.  Without external communication you will get
> > frustrated and isolated. Sharing with others is healthy, providing potential solutions if you
> > are correct in your analysis.
> 
> So maybe the solution would rather be: if you’re frustrated, first enjoy
> a good meal (that’s good for the mood ☺), then say politely inside the
> community what feels like a problem to you.

If one put enough focus, then a rant is justified, even if to be corrected.
 
> My personal experience is that almost every time I grew sarcastic or
> ranted, I hit the wrong people … (and had to write an excuse, hoping
> that they would still be listening).

From your experience, have your rants been justified ? Introspection
of other people's rants should be considered part of the work.  After 
all, expletives towards demigods have occurred since time immemorial,
and will surely continue.

When Odysseus is washed ashore on the island of Ogygia, Calypso compels
him to remain as her lover for seven years.  But he finally escapes when
Hermes tells Calypso to release him.  I would also tell Calypso to release
users, rather than compelling them to be her lovers for many years. 

Felicitations 

> Best wishes,
> Arne
> -- 
> Unpolitisch sein
> heißt politisch sein,
> ohne es zu merken.
> draketo.de
>

Re: Blog post

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 650 bytes --]


Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> From your experience, have your rants been justified ? Introspection
> of other people's rants should be considered part of the work.  After 
> all, expletives towards demigods have occurred since time immemorial,
> and will surely continue.

Yes, they were totally justified — but usually not helpful. Most times
they needlessly hurt people who then often stopped contributing. A
friendly text may have helped to stay together and actually fix the
problem to move forward as community.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 1125 bytes --]

Re: Blog post

[Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 9:29 PM
> From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Eshel Yaron" <me@eshelyaron.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Blog post
>
> 
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> 
> > From your experience, have your rants been justified ? Introspection
> > of other people's rants should be considered part of the work.  After 
> > all, expletives towards demigods have occurred since time immemorial,
> > and will surely continue.
> 
> Yes, they were totally justified — but usually not helpful. Most times
> they needlessly hurt people who then often stopped contributing. A
> friendly text may have helped to stay together and actually fix the
> problem to move forward as community. - Arne

Nobody gets hurt.   It is commonly a type of vengeance (a form of 
retaliation) intended to dissuade contrarian views directed towards 
the developers.

The Gnu Project is built on the fundamental premise that software is for
the benefit of its users, not solely its developers.  This perspective 
emphasizes the importance of creating an inclusive and collaborative 
community where users can contribute, share ideas, and provide feedback
without reprisals from developers - unlike what generally happens with 
Proprietary Software Developers.

The "Information for Gnu Maintainers" states that when a developer receives
a report, the maintainers have to keep in mind that such reports are crucial
for our work - so always thank each person who sends a report. 

This is not to say that a considerate peaceful problem solving should not
be the common way of approaching the developer team.  Ultimately the job
of the maintainers is to exercise their authority so they can focus upon
improving the next version of the program.  Stopping one's contribution 
rather than exercising one's authority is Conflict Avoidance that shows
a Lack of Responsibility - a sign of failure.   



----- Christopher Dimech
Administrator General - Chilkat Design Build - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
bestow.

In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !

https://www.gnu.org     https://www.fsf.org/


---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)

Re: Blog post

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1376 bytes --]


Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

>> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 9:29 PM
>> From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
>> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
>> Cc: "Eshel Yaron" <me@eshelyaron.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: Blog post
>>
>> 
>> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>> 
>> > From your experience, have your rants been justified ? Introspection
>> > of other people's rants should be considered part of the work.  After 
>> > all, expletives towards demigods have occurred since time immemorial,
>> > and will surely continue.
>> 
>> Yes, they were totally justified — but usually not helpful. Most times
>> they needlessly hurt people who then often stopped contributing. A
>> friendly text may have helped to stay together and actually fix the
>> problem to move forward as community. - Arne
>
> Nobody gets hurt.   It is commonly a type of vengeance (a form of 
> retaliation) intended to dissuade contrarian views directed towards 
> the developers.

I think there’s a misunderstanding here.

When I ranted, my rants were justified, but my rants hurt people and
that did not help. So not ranting but instead writing a friendly text
would have been the better choice.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 1121 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 92 bytes --]

---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)

Re: Blog post

[Emanuel Berg]

"Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists wrote:

>>> Yes, they were totally justified — but usually not
>>> helpful. Most times they needlessly hurt people who then
>>> often stopped contributing. A friendly text may have
>>> helped to stay together and actually fix the problem to
>>> move forward as community. - Arne
>>
>> Nobody gets hurt. It is commonly a type of vengeance (a
>> form of retaliation) intended to dissuade contrarian views
>> directed towards the developers.
>
> I think there’s a misunderstanding here.
>
> When I ranted, my rants were justified, but my rants hurt
> people and that did not help.

Often ranting happens when you are frustrated that people
don't talk to you, so you are not allowed to show frustration
in a good way, you show it in a bad way.

But on e-mail discussion lists it is possible to always write
a more friendly letter.

Sometimes ranting happens still and it isn't that bad.
Often one feels so bad from the whole situation, one feels one
wrote something horrible. But it is often not the case, it is
just one's own feelings one reads into it. HHOS.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal


---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)

Re: Blog post

[Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2023 at 12:46 AM
> From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists" <emacs-tangents@gnu.org>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Eshel Yaron" <me@eshelyaron.com>, Emacs-tangents@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Blog post
>
> 
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> 
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 9:29 PM
> >> From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
> >> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> >> Cc: "Eshel Yaron" <me@eshelyaron.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: Blog post
> >>
> >> 
> >> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> >> 
> >> > From your experience, have your rants been justified ? Introspection
> >> > of other people's rants should be considered part of the work.  After 
> >> > all, expletives towards demigods have occurred since time immemorial,
> >> > and will surely continue.
> >> 
> >> Yes, they were totally justified — but usually not helpful. Most times
> >> they needlessly hurt people who then often stopped contributing. A
> >> friendly text may have helped to stay together and actually fix the
> >> problem to move forward as community. - Arne
> >
> > Nobody gets hurt.   It is commonly a type of vengeance (a form of 
> > retaliation) intended to dissuade contrarian views directed towards 
> > the developers.
> 
> I think there’s a misunderstanding here.
> 
> When I ranted, my rants were justified, but my rants hurt people and
> that did not help. So not ranting but instead writing a friendly text
> would have been the better choice. - Arne

If it was a better choice, one should adopt it.  Strong emotions, especially 
negative ones like anger, can be physically and mentally taxing to everybody. 

Hacker groups have been marked by conflicts or "wars".  Encouraging a transformation
of the working conditions which were historically characterized by intense verbal abuse
is needed.  I put the emphasis on the maintainers themselves to eliminate chaos within
their project.  The latter could be the specific area where our opinions differ.  
Users typically focus upon specific details, whereas software designers focus on
making everything work well together.  From my experience, being a maintainer requires 
a higher level of concentration and control of the external.


---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)

Re: Blog post

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: Eshel Yaron <me@eshelyaron.com>, Emacs-tangents@gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 17:20:56 +0100
> From:  Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other
>  Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org>
> 
> I put the emphasis on the maintainers themselves to eliminate chaos within
> their project.  The latter could be the specific area where our opinions differ.  
> Users typically focus upon specific details, whereas software designers focus on
> making everything work well together.  From my experience, being a maintainer requires 
> a higher level of concentration and control of the external.

It is quite clear to me from what you wrote above that your mental
model and vision of maintainership of a project like Emacs are very
different from the reality, starting from what does it mean to be a
maintainer of such a project and what is its job description.

Given that, your criticism is mostly off-mark.

---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)

Re: Blog post

[Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2023 at 5:01 AM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: arne_bab@web.de, me@eshelyaron.com, Emacs-tangents@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Blog post
>
> > Cc: Eshel Yaron <me@eshelyaron.com>, Emacs-tangents@gnu.org
> > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 17:20:56 +0100
> > From:  Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other
> >  Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org>
> >
> > I put the emphasis on the maintainers themselves to eliminate chaos within
> > their project.  The latter could be the specific area where our opinions differ.
> > Users typically focus upon specific details, whereas software designers focus on
> > making everything work well together.  From my experience, being a maintainer requires
> > a higher level of concentration and control of the external.
>
> It is quite clear to me from what you wrote above that your mental
> model and vision of maintainership of a project like Emacs are very
> different from the reality, starting from what does it mean to be a
> maintainer of such a project and what is its job description.
>
> Given that, your criticism is mostly off-mark.

Yes,  my vision of maintainership of any project is much different.

---
via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)

Re: Blog post

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: Eshel Yaron <me@eshelyaron.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:22:33 +0100
> 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 8:30 PM
> > From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
> > To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> > Cc: "Eshel Yaron" <me@eshelyaron.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Blog post
> >
> > Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> > > Ranting exclusively to oneself, without any external input or perspective is problematic.
> > > Without external feedback or differing viewpoints, it's challenging to gain a realistic
> > > perspective on the problem being ranted about.  Ultimately leading to unexamined positions
> > > without the benefit of alternative viewpoints.  Without external communication you will get
> > > frustrated and isolated. Sharing with others is healthy, providing potential solutions if you
> > > are correct in your analysis.
> > 
> > So maybe the solution would rather be: if you’re frustrated, first enjoy
> > a good meal (that’s good for the mood ☺), then say politely inside the
> > community what feels like a problem to you.
> 
> If one put enough focus, then a rant is justified, even if to be corrected.
>  
> > My personal experience is that almost every time I grew sarcastic or
> > ranted, I hit the wrong people … (and had to write an excuse, hoping
> > that they would still be listening).
> 
> >From your experience, have your rants been justified ? Introspection
> of other people's rants should be considered part of the work.  After 
> all, expletives towards demigods have occurred since time immemorial,
> and will surely continue.
> 
> When Odysseus is washed ashore on the island of Ogygia, Calypso compels
> him to remain as her lover for seven years.  But he finally escapes when
> Hermes tells Calypso to release him.  I would also tell Calypso to release
> users, rather than compelling them to be her lovers for many years. 

Please take this kind of threads to emacs-tangents, where they belong.

Thanks.

Re: Blog post

[Stefan Kangas]

Hi Eshel,

[Emacs co-maintainer here, but I'm only speaking for myself.  I meant to
send this in December, but never did.  So this comes a bit late.  Sorry
if it's a bit long.]

I can't speak for the people that were attacked in that post, but I can
say that it made me concerned.  In particular, it seemed far removed
from the type of culture that we want to promote in Emacs development.

I thought about its purpose, and had a few guesses for what it might all
be about.  One option I considered was that it was simply someone making
a mistake due to not considering in advance the impact that words might
have.  It seems like this was indeed the case here, and that's good.

Emacs is a small church, and we need to always keep our shared goal in
mind.  I think everyone fundamentally agrees that sowing distrust cannot
help further our goals.  It's when the going gets rough, and the
technical disagreements are extra sharp, that we need to pay particular
attention to how we communicate and treat each other.

Let's be sensitive to and respect that some people might still be hurt
and upset by the incident.  That said, I believe that everyone deserves
a second chance.  So for my part at least, the matter is settled with
the above apology.

In addition to your apology, I also note that your original blog post
has been replaced with a simple notice of its retraction.  In my book,
that also goes a long way.

Hopefully, your apology will have made this episode somewhat less taxing
for Thierry and Eli.  Let's hope that both of them will carry on their
outstanding work for Emacs.  I also very much hope to see you continuing
to contribute to Emacs going forward, of course.

A month has now passed, and soon that will be a year.  Patches and
technical discussions will make that time go by faster, and we have
important work to do.  So let's get to it.

Re: Blog post

[Eshel Yaron]

Hi Stefan,

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> [Emacs co-maintainer here, but I'm only speaking for myself.  I meant to
> send this in December, but never did.  So this comes a bit late.  Sorry
> if it's a bit long.]

It's neither too late nor too long :)
I appreciate it.


Thanks,

Eshel