From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2024 23:15:04 +0800 Message-ID: <877cebwxaf.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> <746FE961-37C5-4387-8274-7D90908EE2D6@dancol.org> <8734p3219c.fsf@yahoo.com> <867cefeo1w.fsf@gnu.org> <8734p03e94.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <867cec9ccl.fsf@gnu.org> <877D0EA4-CAC1-4FA3-8102-8AC7446AFAED@dancol.org> <87msn7x058.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o77ng4yy.fsf@dancol.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6600"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii , Jeremy Bryant , stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 26 17:16:09 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sMUNV-0001Uz-1s for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 17:16:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMUN4-0002Qy-QJ; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 11:15:42 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMUN3-0002Q4-Ob for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 11:15:41 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.147]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMUN1-0002Z3-DN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 11:15:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1719414936; bh=3CzbQ6q1o3SV1Jr/csr0kjEcnzWT+x0+jfdFV5gLync=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=q72yaRaOTmIXMRhSFPUcRehCJxGaJDQhnf2NYz0fh9JViFSGvwdVamn0QgXplHt/71gjZGBmnW46ESRONcbe9mWAFg05n9ZYa6I4DiIze3uZEcjAFTrK7r1G3NLUxN3dPiVS83X+d6WRQcpoe9ec/A4tJYUB533Iw74b1RxrdKKrpBFzWvZn+2TnImw5NKBOvZb+3S11SahJ9Qv92Xc6FSXmf5rrHbEnt9tFpL3fMuFSmHPsxP6zxlOb4KXuxIl45na6AilAkDVrPGxzV6ZsfctHr+spfD7laje8VOpIxOLSE+QGRJnvawPzAAmkg8/n9ySm5lLHILRas42sEmjOfQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1719414936; bh=uZ8eAdTSwf89EcdJtRvGtE1FJMO2fVN3QfdcCl8Xcx3=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=rL0vQoAOBddzaCP/m75vPC8Wvs+HKXGSyLOiuVzpiMXWzld9McNsNqVYQp6cvAnrHXLl3a6ZOXm56Y6eAWVCR8buy6AZ2fWIJa5EUcVAtosIf3ZIttcpovg3qx2qndQjuwxF03JtkEsXSuExwW1L8pLAi7icKYObR0tnJlnFOkq+iwit3ipRXjPBUu8q7O+fgO2Qm5AlUhTJx0VvWgBNZZexgYRmpkqi4E9jAhmhn3+lpZ+kCwpOiL6+SILH/ayFHp5C29jTDmfBn9NO78iNDK5aLz7JO8Px3o8FwF3LRLg/M3yZCudtFsykEYfPg1qM2tHnFmW5pgBzVWh+H2oiLw== X-YMail-OSG: Xfq0hLYVM1nGL747wFXbbPXmjwataa7oZhmMVwDRwvCyCorYzVyYnlSEdSragju R2vDYiXcKQl6PhoPWBaFYjj6f0zK9cMEa7z2sJOEqPK1llCRhcZFbmkTY4Si_zD.bgr3kgkEnZxX 1UOrTWJJAxD6ZB3H7QTGOyFtqzXAaAetuQEs1Fb0QuwmrzHLtCdo.MhzYnSZy7u.R4gl4JrQGbV6 H_fiPje_NA5vNEFLuSiIb0vhGr176OeO5iz.M7K.4LFdc08Ng0jAOouQApDForOsizT2Eqaa4q9Y g3WpK7ckJxdSYPjknh2A.gCPSnY5wvzo5X22TULsdvp_tedjrqVQY9PJVb6G5wnLHd_AXBqEgrJh H9RFPd2DtcdwVrDtr3qDI_OOxvjvTLl6N47IFXjI1Qyn_TVdC23Ny6Nt4ndRwWCdETHzUSZmuRCx oGh0mYgtQY1YA9Z0rygjNwwmMHMQT9FmDndDFbhd9WfJEoCjA8ObXXKVgfLgZ.JfJQJ1oYQeK.B7 zMyq10iBbSwkVugLFiP0qY4JyXFmmVGjOWQ2LVmHyDZ068tGoluK8iT3mwmMaxDp2pPktsV_IXkv U87HzAAOHO02dzq9u4C5SvkLyijpNZPt8D1J7lwPhmtzwFGwuJ794UMrmcF88QfAsWA9X_4G3XbH rE1JYQo.0.2cXcNUkAtWA06NkiLkFpUco9KVhX8PdT5_btFPr0DnFxXGUzOTs2j11E_hX.J.RYA5 qTE3uyS82QE8qJvy7ivBaUQm4FFotzfCsQqTcuC021YWIRYGp9FH8_Ga2zEFvjIiaeXvbGaw.qcc fVMWXMnNwtUwlCojTJ0hIoevgDdEADZ8V6joeamb81 X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 3a37fd4d-2d43-4e0d-a102-e5c6a01ee249 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 15:15:36 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-7b469d9f6-m2q87 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 05c9f92f72044d6497b3f6dda59276c8; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 15:15:29 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87o77ng4yy.fsf@dancol.org> (Daniel Colascione's message of "Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:21:09 -0400") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22407 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.191.147; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320711 Archived-At: Daniel Colascione writes: >> Most users will for this purpose use the mouse, if there is really such >> a number of windows that navigating with other-window is impractical. > > That Emacs, of all programs, is mouse-centric and therefore needs no > keybindings for certain functions is a curious claim. Real men don't attack straw men. Anyone can see the enormous disconnect between your paraphrasing and the original. > Another curious argument is that a problem X isn't actually a problem > because, if it were, it would have been solved already. That's true only > in the limit as time goes to infinity. "It would have been MENTIONED already." > What you're doing here is called "poisoning the well" and is another > invalid form of discourse. Before convicting your opponent of the cardinal sin of committing an _informal_ fallacy, it would serve you well to ensure that the validity of what he has said is truly dependent on the fallacious statement being accepted. That is, that the so-called fallacy is not no more central to his meaning than any other rhetorical device. But I understand that it is immensely tempting to pounce upon "invalid forms of discourse" by way of immediately asserting victory, just as the thrill of winning is more enjoyable than earnest persuasion. > Making certain functionality mouse-only is, in fact, contrary to > longstanding tradition. For the lion's share of users unwilling to use the mouse, other-window is perfectly adequate. Or we would have heard otherwise long ago. Whether Alan is a user of Windmove, I don't know, but he does not believe it to justify default keybindings in the C-x 4 keymap. I have never used Windmove, because I am perfectly content with the status quo. Eli did not so much as understand your proposal at first. No others have referred to having installed keybindings agreeing exactly with yours, whatsoever concurrence they might have expressed, from which it is easy to conclude that your choices are so universal as preferences for text editor or tea versus coffee--that is to say, not universal at all.