From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alex Schroeder Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: German tutorial fix Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 16:18:38 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: <87661ly1xd.fsf@emacswiki.org> References: <87y9emho8s.fsf@lexx.delysid.org> <200205160722.g4G7M8X18181@aztec.santafe.edu> <3277-Thu16May2002155214+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il> <200205171928.g4HJSdw20390@aztec.santafe.edu> <87znyywagx.fsf@pot.cnuce.cnr.it> <87adqyz047.fsf@tc-1-100.kawasaki.gol.ne.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1021733105 12003 127.0.0.1 (18 May 2002 14:45:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 14:45:05 +0000 (UTC) Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 1795SD-00037U-00 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:45:05 +0200 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1795fE-0002FX-00 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:58:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 1794za-0001Cw-00; Sat, 18 May 2002 10:15:30 -0400 Original-Received: from relay02.cablecom.net ([62.2.33.102]) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 1794yN-0000zl-00 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 10:14:16 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp.swissonline.ch (mail-4.swissonline.ch [62.2.32.85]) by relay02.cablecom.net (8.11.6/8.11.4/SOL/AWF/MXRELAY/06072001) with ESMTP id g4IEF3791140 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:15:04 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from confusibombus (dclient217-162-233-55.hispeed.ch [217.162.233.55]) by smtp.swissonline.ch (8.11.6/8.11.6/SMTPSOL/AWF/2002040101) with ESMTP id g4IEEDK04396 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:14:13 +0200 (MEST) Original-Received: from alex by confusibombus with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17952c-0000AC-00 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:18:38 +0200 Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <87adqyz047.fsf@tc-1-100.kawasaki.gol.ne.jp> (Miles Bader's message of "18 May 2002 11:00:08 +0900") Original-Lines: 40 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i686-pc-linux-gnu) Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:4088 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:4088 I think it makes no sense to argue about the keys used to move point in any other context than simplicity for newbies. Thus, I agree with Francesco. If we consider such arguemts like "C-f &c are much better for _anyone_ who can touch-type", our discussion will degrade, because nobody really *knows*. This is even worse than Dvorak keyboard. There, at least we have conflicting *research* -- in this case all we have is conflicting opinions. Therefore, let us base our decision on what to include in the tutorial on what newbies need in order to start using Emacs -- wether fast or slow, touch-typing or eagle-eyeing. Alex. Miles Bader writes: > That's silly. C-f &c are much better for _anyone_ who can touch-type, > because the (usually very long) reach for the arrow keys causes a lot of > disruption. > > This has _nothing_ to do with being a `very fast typist' or not, it's > simply a much more efficient of working anytime you want to keep your > hands on the keyboard, e.g., when you're actually typing something. > > I think the arrow keys are worse than the mouse for this reason, because > people generally use the mouse for `gross editing', where they > conciously _do_ switch modes, and are prepared for the disruption, > whereas cursor-movement keys are very commonly used while actually > typing, for correcting minor mistakes. > > So, even if it's not as completely necessary now days to teach the > cursor-movement keys to complete novices (because they'll `get by' using > the arrow keys), banishing them to an appendix or something as `advanced > usage' would be a real disservice to users. -- http://www.electronicintifada.net/diaries/index.html http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/hr2506c.html