Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Kastrup]

August <fusionfive@comhem.se> writes:

> Can I compile Emacs so that it uses GTK style scrollbar and menubar?
> I have tried to configure Emacs 21.3 with the `--with-x-toolkit'
> option, but it doesn't work.

It wouldn't.  You need a developer version of Emacs to compile for
GTK.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[August]

On tor, 2005-02-24 at 00:26 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> August <fusionfive@comhem.se> writes:
> 
> > Can I compile Emacs so that it uses GTK style scrollbar and menubar?
> > I have tried to configure Emacs 21.3 with the `--with-x-toolkit'
> > option, but it doesn't work.
> 
> It wouldn't.  You need a developer version of Emacs to compile for
> GTK.

I assume you mean Emacs CVS. As GTK has been around for quite some time
it's strange that the standard release still has no support for it. The
standard (Motif?) scrollbar looks (excuse me) so darn ugly and I think
Emacs deserves a more appealing appearance on the GNOME desktop. 

How (exactly) do I download and compile the developer version of Emacs?
I have no experience with CVS.

-- 
August

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 24.02.2005 um 01:44 schrieb August:

> How (exactly) do I download and compile the developer version of Emacs?
> I have no experience with CVS.

It's not only this (http://savannah.gnu.org/cvs/?group=emacs): to make 
this CVS Emacs it's not enough to invoke make, but you have to tell it 
'make bootstrap' or 'make bootfast' -- hours later you're done!

There is also an issue with optimization: be careful and start without! 
When this Emacs runs well and is installed do 'make extraclean', try a 
new configure and have now CFLAGS defined in your shell. Next morning 
you'll see ...

--
Greetings

   Pete

How many Microsoft engineers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
None.
They just redefine "dark" as the new standard.

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[August]

On tor, 2005-02-24 at 11:25 +0100, Peter Dyballa wrote:
> Am 24.02.2005 um 01:44 schrieb August:
> 
> > How (exactly) do I download and compile the developer version of Emacs?
> > I have no experience with CVS.
> 
> It's not only this (http://savannah.gnu.org/cvs/?group=emacs): to make 
> this CVS Emacs it's not enough to invoke make, but you have to tell it 
> 'make bootstrap' or 'make bootfast' -- hours later you're done!
> 
> There is also an issue with optimization: be careful and start without! 
> When this Emacs runs well and is installed do 'make extraclean', try a 
> new configure and have now CFLAGS defined in your shell. Next morning 
> you'll see ...

Thanks for the information. Maybe too much work for a cosmetic issue. 

-- 
August

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Hendrik Sattler]

August wrote:

> On tor, 2005-02-24 at 00:26 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
>> August <fusionfive@comhem.se> writes:
>> 
>> > Can I compile Emacs so that it uses GTK style scrollbar and menubar?
>> > I have tried to configure Emacs 21.3 with the `--with-x-toolkit'
>> > option, but it doesn't work.
>> 
>> It wouldn't.  You need a developer version of Emacs to compile for
>> GTK.
> 
> I assume you mean Emacs CVS. As GTK has been around for quite some time
> it's strange that the standard release still has no support for it. The
> standard (Motif?) scrollbar looks (excuse me) so darn ugly and I think
> Emacs deserves a more appealing appearance on the GNOME desktop.
> 
> How (exactly) do I download and compile the developer version of Emacs?
> I have no experience with CVS.

But you can read, the page is even localized to some languages:
http://savannah.gnu.org/cvs/?group=emacs

HS

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Kastrup]

August <fusionfive@comhem.se> writes:

> On tor, 2005-02-24 at 00:26 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
>> August <fusionfive@comhem.se> writes:
>> 
>> > Can I compile Emacs so that it uses GTK style scrollbar and
>> > menubar?  I have tried to configure Emacs 21.3 with the
>> > `--with-x-toolkit' option, but it doesn't work.
>> 
>> It wouldn't.  You need a developer version of Emacs to compile for
>> GTK.
>
> I assume you mean Emacs CVS. As GTK has been around for quite some
> time it's strange that the standard release still has no support for
> it.

The code base forming the last release was released as 21.1 in 2001.
Since then, only bug fix releases have occured.

Qt/KDE have also been around for quite some time, and support of them
is not even planned.

> The standard (Motif?) scrollbar looks (excuse me) so darn ugly and I
> think Emacs deserves a more appealing appearance on the GNOME
> desktop.

You'll probably scream out in horror, but I use
--with-gtk --without-toolkit-scroll-bars
for my version of Emacs, with a few X resources to make the default
scroll bars somewhat broader and nicer in color.

And that's because the ergonomics of almost all toolkit scrollbars
suck.

To change the direction of moving, I have to move the mouse.  I can't
control the size of the move except by dragging (a recipe for RSI).
When scrolling in one direction repeatedly, the moment the scroll
"thumbmark" gyrates under the mouse cursor, it stops working.  Let
GTK+ offer a customization option "Athena style scrollbar semantics",
and I won't be forced to replace them in order to use scrollbars
productively.  No mistake: the native, Athena style toolbars _look_
awful (and you can't mix the "real" Athena or its visually more
attractive variant Xaw3d with GTK+) and screenshots from my Emacs
sessions are not a recommendation.

But I won't tolerate crippled scrollbars just because they are more
visually appealing.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Hendrik Sattler]

David Kastrup wrote:

> And that's because the ergonomics of almost all toolkit scrollbars
> suck.
> 
> To change the direction of moving, I have to move the mouse.  I can't
> control the size of the move except by dragging (a recipe for RSI).
> When scrolling in one direction repeatedly, the moment the scroll
> "thumbmark" gyrates under the mouse cursor, it stops working.

Mouse wheels are a great invention. Instead of mouse1/mouse2 to scroll, you
use scroll_up/scroll_down, nothing is more intuitive than that.
And at least with QT, you can use that on a horizontal scrollbar, too, if
you place the mouse cursor over it.
Some mice offer a real button instead of the wheel (I like this even
better).

And since this is about a text editor: PgUp/PgDown exist ;)

HS

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Kastrup]

Hendrik Sattler <sattler2000@gmx.de> writes:

> David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> And that's because the ergonomics of almost all toolkit scrollbars
>> suck.
>> 
>> To change the direction of moving, I have to move the
>> mouse.  I can't control the size of the move except by dragging (a
>> recipe for RSI).  When scrolling in one direction repeatedly, the
>> moment the scroll "thumbmark" gyrates under the mouse cursor, it
>> stops working.
>
> Mouse wheels are a great invention. Instead of mouse1/mouse2 to
> scroll, you use scroll_up/scroll_down, nothing is more intuitive
> than that.  And at least with QT, you can use that on a horizontal
> scrollbar, too, if you place the mouse cursor over it.  Some mice
> offer a real button instead of the wheel (I like this even better).
>
> And since this is about a text editor: PgUp/PgDown exist ;)

All those are arguments for not using the scrollbar at all.  While you
can turn it off with Emacs easily, it is somewhat pointless to discuss
what scrollbar type is the best when not used.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Hendrik Sattler]

David Kastrup wrote:

> Hendrik Sattler <sattler2000@gmx.de> writes:
> 
>> David Kastrup wrote:
>>
>>> And that's because the ergonomics of almost all toolkit scrollbars
>>> suck.
>>> 
>>> To change the direction of moving, I have to move the
>>> mouse.  I can't control the size of the move except by dragging (a
>>> recipe for RSI).  When scrolling in one direction repeatedly, the
>>> moment the scroll "thumbmark" gyrates under the mouse cursor, it
>>> stops working.
>>
>> Mouse wheels are a great invention. Instead of mouse1/mouse2 to
>> scroll, you use scroll_up/scroll_down, nothing is more intuitive
>> than that.  And at least with QT, you can use that on a horizontal
>> scrollbar, too, if you place the mouse cursor over it.  Some mice
>> offer a real button instead of the wheel (I like this even better).
>>
>> And since this is about a text editor: PgUp/PgDown exist ;)
> 
> All those are arguments for not using the scrollbar at all.  While you
> can turn it off with Emacs easily, it is somewhat pointless to discuss
> what scrollbar type is the best when not used.

I only see it as indication of where I am in the whole page.
Your points (using mouse1/mouse2 to scroll down/up) do not really use the
scroll bar, either. To use the scroll _bar_ itself, you actually have to
drag it. The only other good use would the it jumps to point where you
click (but did not find one that does this, yet).

HS

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Kastrup]

Hendrik Sattler <sattler2000@gmx.de> writes:

> David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> Hendrik Sattler <sattler2000@gmx.de> writes:
>> 
>>> David Kastrup wrote:
>>>
>>>> And that's because the ergonomics of almost all toolkit scrollbars
>>>> suck.
>>>> 
>>>> To change the direction of moving, I have to move the
>>>> mouse.  I can't control the size of the move except by dragging
>>>> (a recipe for RSI).  When scrolling in one direction repeatedly,
>>>> the moment the scroll "thumbmark" gyrates under the mouse cursor,
>>>> it stops working.
>>>
>>> Mouse wheels are a great invention. Instead of mouse1/mouse2 to
>>> scroll, you use scroll_up/scroll_down, nothing is more intuitive
>>> than that.  And at least with QT, you can use that on a horizontal
>>> scrollbar, too, if you place the mouse cursor over it.  Some mice
>>> offer a real button instead of the wheel (I like this even
>>> better).
>>>
>>> And since this is about a text editor: PgUp/PgDown exist ;)
>> 
>> All those are arguments for not using the scrollbar at all.  While
>> you can turn it off with Emacs easily, it is somewhat pointless to
>> discuss what scrollbar type is the best when not used.
>
> I only see it as indication of where I am in the whole page.  Your
> points (using mouse1/mouse2 to scroll down/up) do not really use the
> scroll bar, either.

Uh, pardon?  First, it is mouse-1 and mouse-3.  And secondly, I don't
know how clicking on the scrollbar to achieve a scrolling effect is
not really using it.

> To use the scroll _bar_ itself, you actually have to drag it.

It would appear that you are confusing the scrollbar tack/thumb with
the scrollbar itself.  Athena-style scrollbars don't even _have_ a
tack.

> The only other good use would the it jumps to point where you click
> (but did not find one that does this, yet).

That is the mouse-2 action of Athena-style scrollbars (and the
no-toolkit scrollbars of Emacs _are_ Athena-style).

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Lee Sau Dan]

>>>>> "Hendrik" == Hendrik Sattler <sattler2000@gmx.de> writes:

    Hendrik> Mouse wheels are a great invention.

A great invention to cause damage to the fine muscles in the hand?


    Hendrik> Instead   of    mouse1/mouse2   to   scroll,    you   use
    Hendrik> scroll_up/scroll_down,  nothing  is  more intuitive  than
    Hendrik> that.

I think  the PageUp/PageDown keys  are more intuitive than  the wheel.
And guess what C-PageUp and C-PageDown do in Emacs!


    Hendrik> And since this is about a text editor: PgUp/PgDown exist
    Hendrik> ;)

Which is  more intuitive.  And I  find pressing the  Delete key always
more  intuitive than  dragging  something towards  a rubbish-bin  like
icon.



-- 
Lee Sau Dan                     李守敦                          ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Hendrik Sattler]

Lee Sau Dan wrote:

>>>>>> "Hendrik" == Hendrik Sattler <sattler2000@gmx.de> writes:
> 
>     Hendrik> Mouse wheels are a great invention.
> 
> A great invention to cause damage to the fine muscles in the hand?

Depends on the hand, I guess. Small mouse, big hand is surely not the best
solution.
 
>     Hendrik> And since this is about a text editor: PgUp/PgDown exist
>     Hendrik> ;)
> 
> Which is  more intuitive.  And I  find pressing the  Delete key always
> more  intuitive than  dragging  something towards  a rubbish-bin  like
> icon.

And I like to do it with the object approach of the context menu. There is
also no key named "rename" or "create new".
But the delete key for deleting text is fine and now we're on-topic again :)

HS

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Combs]

In article <87k6oyc7ae.fsf@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>,
Lee Sau Dan  <danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:




>
>I think  the PageUp/PageDown keys  are more intuitive than  the wheel.
>And guess what C-PageUp and C-PageDown do in Emacs!

Well, THANK YOU FOR THAT!

I never would have known it but for your two lines there!

No?  But isn't it clearly documented?

Well, sort of.   Here's part of a C-h b and a couple of C-h k's:

| <M-prior>	scroll-other-window-down
| <M-next>	scroll-other-window
| <C-next>	scroll-left
| <C-prior>	scroll-right
| <next>		scroll-up
| <prior>		scroll-down
| 
| 
| <prior> runs the command scroll-down
| (scroll-down &optional ARG)
|    which is an interactive built-in function.
| 
| Scroll text of current window down ARG lines; or near full screen if no ARG.
| A near full screen is `next-screen-context-lines' less than a full screen.
| Negative ARG means scroll upward.
| If ARG is the atom `-', scroll upward by nearly full screen.
| When calling from a program, supply as argument a number, nil, or `-'.
| 
| 
| 
| 
| <C-prior> runs the command scroll-right
| (scroll-right &optional ARG)
|    which is an interactive built-in function.
| 
| Scroll selected window display ARG columns right.
| Default for ARG is window width minus 2.
| Value is the total amount of leftward horizontal scrolling in
| effect after the change.
| If `automatic-hscrolling' is non-nil, the argument ARG modifies
| a lower bound for automatic scrolling, i.e. automatic scrolling
| will not scroll a window to a column less than the value returned
| by this function.

"<prior>"?   "<next>?".  

Why the <expletive-deleted> (shows my age, no?) didn't
"they" (rms?) call them pageDown and pageUp?

Yeah, maybe those two words, prior and next, are defined
somewhere in the gnu-emacs manual, but c'm on, give me a break!

Anyway, again, thanks for those two lines!

-------


STRANGE this M-prior -- C-h b reports (see above) it
bound to scrolling the other window down --

BUT! -- C-h k  on it says "unbound"????



David

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Stefan Monnier]

> "<prior>"?   "<next>?".
> Why the <expletive-deleted> (shows my age, no?) didn't
> "they" (rms?) call them pageDown and pageUp?

That's how X11 calls the key (except that Emacs downcases then event name).


        Stefan

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Kevin Rodgers]

David Combs wrote:
 > "<prior>"?   "<next>?".
 >
 > Why the <expletive-deleted> (shows my age, no?) didn't
 > "they" (rms?) call them pageDown and pageUp?
 >
 > Yeah, maybe those two words, prior and next, are defined
 > somewhere in the gnu-emacs manual, but c'm on, give me a break!

As far as I can tell, the XK_Page_Up and XK_Page_Down keysyms were added
to /usr/include/X11/keysymdef.h as aliases for XK_Prior and XK_Next just
to support the IBM PC/AT keyboard back in 1991 (comp.windows.x message
<10265@scolex.sco.COM>).  But X11 had been around since 1987, X10 since
1985, and X9 (the first to support the IBM PC) since 1985
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_window_system#History).  Emacs 19 was
the first major version to run in its own X window, but Emacs 18.52 ran
under X10 back in 1988.

Emacs doesn't know what's engraved on your keyboard keys, so it uses the
orginal keysyms for the key codes sent by the Prior/PageUp and
Next/PageDown keys.

-- 
Kevin Rodgers

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Stefan Monnier]

> You'll probably scream out in horror, but I use
> --with-gtk --without-toolkit-scroll-bars
> for my version of Emacs, with a few X resources to make the default
> scroll bars somewhat broader and nicer in color.

Why Gtk?  With Athena, you'd get a nicer looking Xaw3d scrollbar (unless
your Xaw3d was compiled with the evil SCROLLBAR_ARROWS compilation option
which castrates it like a Motif scrollbar).


        Stefan

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Kastrup]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> You'll probably scream out in horror, but I use
>> --with-gtk --without-toolkit-scroll-bars
>> for my version of Emacs, with a few X resources to make the default
>> scroll bars somewhat broader and nicer in color.
>
> Why Gtk?

Because the menus are _much_ better, antialiased and Unicode-capable.
The toolbar is nicer to demo as well (I have it off by default).

> With Athena, you'd get a nicer looking Xaw3d scrollbar (unless your
> Xaw3d was compiled with the evil SCROLLBAR_ARROWS compilation option
> which castrates it like a Motif scrollbar).

Athena does not mix with Gtk, and Athena menus and dialogs suck
royally.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[August]

On fre, 2005-02-25 at 15:18 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> 
> >> You'll probably scream out in horror, but I use
> >> --with-gtk --without-toolkit-scroll-bars
> >> for my version of Emacs, with a few X resources to make the default
> >> scroll bars somewhat broader and nicer in color.
> >
> > Why Gtk?
> 
> Because the menus are _much_ better, antialiased and Unicode-capable.
> The toolbar is nicer to demo as well (I have it off by default).
> 
> > With Athena, you'd get a nicer looking Xaw3d scrollbar (unless your
> > Xaw3d was compiled with the evil SCROLLBAR_ARROWS compilation option
> > which castrates it like a Motif scrollbar).
> 
> Athena does not mix with Gtk, and Athena menus and dialogs suck
> royally.

I think that if the standard Emacs release supported a native look and
feel of the menu bar and the scrollbar on the major desktops GNOME, KDE,
Windows (XP), Mac OS X etc. everyone would be happy. These are really
basic widgets, so it can't be that hard to code it, right?

-- 
August

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Kastrup]

August <fusionfive@comhem.se> writes:

> On fre, 2005-02-25 at 15:18 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> Athena does not mix with Gtk, and Athena menus and dialogs suck
>> royally.
>
> I think that if the standard Emacs release supported a native look
> and feel of the menu bar and the scrollbar on the major desktops
> GNOME, KDE, Windows (XP), Mac OS X etc. everyone would be
> happy. These are really basic widgets, so it can't be that hard to
> code it, right?

If you had bothered informing yourself, you'd have found that GTK+,
Windows XP and MacOSX (as well as Athena and Motif and naked X11, and
I probably forgot something) _are_ natively supported in the developer
version.

Qt is C++, and the whole signal/memory management model and baggage
coming with it is not likely to blend well with Emacs which ties into
lots more of operating system functionality than just "widgets".
GNOME and KDE are _not_ "basic widgets" but complete desktops.  Emacs
supports drag&drop from them to itself, but that is mostly the extent
of its capabilities.  But GTK+ of course provides the GNOME _looks_,
and the icons it uses are also synchronized with GNOME 2.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[August]

On fre, 2005-02-25 at 19:36 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> August <fusionfive@comhem.se> writes:
> 
> > On fre, 2005-02-25 at 15:18 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> >
> >> Athena does not mix with Gtk, and Athena menus and dialogs suck
> >> royally.
> >
> > I think that if the standard Emacs release supported a native look
> > and feel of the menu bar and the scrollbar on the major desktops
> > GNOME, KDE, Windows (XP), Mac OS X etc. everyone would be
> > happy. These are really basic widgets, so it can't be that hard to
> > code it, right?
> 
> If you had bothered informing yourself, you'd have found that GTK+,
> Windows XP and MacOSX (as well as Athena and Motif and naked X11, and
> I probably forgot something) _are_ natively supported in the developer
> version.

With "the standard Emacs release" I mean the non-CVS version. Will this
GUI support make it to the next release?

> Qt is C++, and the whole signal/memory management model and baggage
> coming with it is not likely to blend well with Emacs which ties into
> lots more of operating system functionality than just "widgets".

Ok, I see the problem with Qt.

> GNOME and KDE are _not_ "basic widgets" but complete desktops.  

Never said that. *Menu bars* and *scrollbars* are basic widgets in the
sense that they are supported by all GUI libraries (at least all GUI:s I
know of).

> Emacs
> supports drag&drop from them to itself, but that is mostly the extent
> of its capabilities.  But GTK+ of course provides the GNOME _looks_,
> and the icons it uses are also synchronized with GNOME 2.

Emacs precompiled on Fedora Core 3 (from the fedora repository) does not
support drag'n'drop, but you are again referring to the developer
version, right?

-- 
August

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[nfreimann]

 --- August <fusionfive@comhem.se> schrieb: 

> With "the standard Emacs release" I mean the non-CVS
> version. Will this
> GUI support make it to the next release?

cvs emacs offers gkt and advanced windows support
since more than an year. Therefore I wonder that the
new 21.4 does not support gtk. Clearly spoken, emacs
without gkt and advanced windows support is outdated.
Its looks anachronistic and behaves crippled in linux
as well as in windows.

There is a excellent windows binary cvs emacs
distribution available at
http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net/. Its the best windows
emacs ever. Why not supporting a binary cvs gtk2-emacs
for linux at ftp.gnu or sourceforge.net? Whats the
problem with that?


	

	
		
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Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[August]

On lör, 2005-02-26 at 01:13 +0100, nfreimann wrote:
>  --- August <fusionfive@comhem.se> schrieb: 
> 
> > With "the standard Emacs release" I mean the non-CVS
> > version. Will this
> > GUI support make it to the next release?
> 
> cvs emacs offers gkt and advanced windows support
> since more than an year. Therefore I wonder that the
> new 21.4 does not support gtk. Clearly spoken, emacs
> without gkt and advanced windows support is outdated.
> Its looks anachronistic and behaves crippled in linux
> as well as in windows.
> 
> There is a excellent windows binary cvs emacs
> distribution available at
> http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net/. Its the best windows
> emacs ever. 

Unfortunately, this release "still" uses the old-style scrollbar. What
we want is a Windows XP scrollbar in Windows XP.

-- 
August

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: August <fusionfive@comhem.se>
> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 02:40:38 +0100
> 
> > There is a excellent windows binary cvs emacs
> > distribution available at
> > http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net/. Its the best windows
> > emacs ever. 
> 
> Unfortunately, this release "still" uses the old-style scrollbar. What
> we want is a Windows XP scrollbar in Windows XP.

Currently, the Emacs development team includes ZERO Windows
developers, i.e. people who can and do devote their free time to
maintaining the Windows port of Emacs.

So whoever ``we'' are, they should volunteer to help in developing the
Windows port rather than complain.  Such volunteers are welcome to
start submitting patches to emacs-devel@gnu.org, and in time ask to
become part of the project, get write access to the CVS tree, etc.

TIA

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

August <fusionfive@comhem.se> writes:

> Unfortunately, this release "still" uses the old-style
> scrollbar. What we want is a Windows XP scrollbar in Windows XP.

well, the first step is to know yourself.  that's good.  now you
get to look at the scenery to see what's outside yourself.  in the
end, of course, would be some kind of ability to enjoy the scenery
and interact w/ it fruitfully on occasion.

good luck!

thi

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 01:13:20 +0100 (CET)
> From: nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de>
> 
> Clearly spoken, emacs without gkt and advanced windows support is
> outdated.  Its looks anachronistic and behaves crippled

People who are unhappy with the rate of Emacs releases (and with pace
of Emacs development in general) should come on board and help the few
core developers in doing the mundane job of preparing Emacs for
release, rather than whine in public about ``anachronistic
look-and-feel''.

> There is a excellent windows binary cvs emacs distribution available
> at http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net/.

Actually, the binary on nqmacs is quite outdated.  Whoever maintains
that should probably release a newer binary ASAP.

> Why not supporting a binary cvs gtk2-emacs for linux at ftp.gnu or
> sourceforge.net? Whats the problem with that?

How about if you prepare such a gtk2-emacs and put it on
sourceforge.net?  What's the problem with that?  The CVS code is
freely accessible for anon.

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[nfreimann]

>Actually, the binary on nqmacs is quite outdated.  Whoever maintains
>that should probably release a newer binary ASAP.

latest release is 21.3.50.1-20050130 dated to January 30ths, 2005,
what is pretty recent. Eli you should visit nqemacs site more
frequently.


-- 
Regards
-NF

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de>
> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:09:02 +0100
> 
> latest release is 21.3.50.1-20050130 dated to January 30ths, 2005,
> what is pretty recent. Eli you should visit nqemacs site more
> frequently.

Given that they update the binary once in about 6 months, and even
their latest-and-greatest is almost 1 month old, why should I visit
them more often?

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Hansen]

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 01:13:20 +0100 (CET) nfreimann wrote:

> Why not supporting a binary cvs gtk2-emacs
> for linux at ftp.gnu or sourceforge.net? Whats the
> problem with that?

Is it that difficult to ./configure --with-x-toolkit=gtk ?

David

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[nfreimann]

David Hansen wrote:

>
>
>Is it that difficult to ./configure --with-x-toolkit=gtk ?
>
>  
>
David, imagine for a moment, that there are *some* users out there who 
are not familiar with "C" development, having not all development 
libraries installed, or are otherwise unwilling doing time consuming 
builds. If there is only a windows cvs emacs binary available then these 
users clearly will prefer windows. Thats the price to pay for arrogance 
and ignorance.

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Hansen]

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:05:43 +0100 nfreimann wrote:

> David Hansen wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Is it that difficult to ./configure --with-x-toolkit=gtk ?
>>
> David, imagine for a moment, that there are *some* users out there who 
> are not familiar with "C" development, having not all development 
> libraries installed, or are otherwise unwilling doing time consuming 
> builds. If there is only a windows cvs emacs binary available then these 
> users clearly will prefer windows. Thats the price to pay for arrogance 
> and ignorance.

Probably these users should not use a *development* version.
It's working pretty well but it's not stable software.

David

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Kastrup]

nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de> writes:

> David Hansen wrote:
>
>>Is it that difficult to ./configure --with-x-toolkit=gtk ?
>
> David, imagine for a moment, that there are *some* users out there
> who are not familiar with "C" development, having not all
> development libraries installed, or are otherwise unwilling doing
> time consuming builds.

So why should the developers be more willing to do that sort of thing
than the users of the software?

Imagine for a moment that there are *some* people out there without
the same sort of income as you are.  Does that mean that they are
entitled to the contents of your fridge, just like you feel that users
should be entitled to the time of the developers, time they are
neither willing to spend themselves nor willing to pay for?

> If there is only a windows cvs emacs binary available then these
> users clearly will prefer windows. Thats the price to pay for
> arrogance and ignorance.

Well, I could hardly imagine anyone more suitable for quoting prices
on that.

Anyway, imagine for a moment that there are *some* users out there who
actually do immerse themselves into what it takes to be a productive
member of the community, preparing careful bug reports, helping with
reading the manual, suggesting useful features.  Would it not be an
extreme disservice to those users if the developers wasted their time
on pampering for the transitory needs of the ungrateful, thus never
getting the next release out?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Stefan Daschek]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> There is a excellent windows binary cvs emacs distribution available
>> at http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net/.
>
> Actually, the binary on nqmacs is quite outdated.  Whoever maintains
> that should probably release a newer binary ASAP.

New binaries are provided whenever I need to build a new Emacs for
myself. This is usually the case when a) there are some bugs in modes
I often use, or b) there are some new features I want to use.

So I'm afraid there is no regular schedule for releases at all.

noniq

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Hendrik Sattler]

nfreimann wrote:

>  --- August <fusionfive@comhem.se> schrieb:
> 
>> With "the standard Emacs release" I mean the non-CVS
>> version. Will this
>> GUI support make it to the next release?
> 
> cvs emacs offers gkt and advanced windows support
> since more than an year. Therefore I wonder that the
> new 21.4 does not support gtk. Clearly spoken, emacs
> without gkt and advanced windows support is outdated.
> Its looks anachronistic and behaves crippled in linux
> as well as in windows.
> 
> There is a excellent windows binary cvs emacs
> distribution available at
> http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net/. Its the best windows
> emacs ever. Why not supporting a binary cvs gtk2-emacs
> for linux at ftp.gnu or sourceforge.net? Whats the
> problem with that?

According to
http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/emacs/emacs/etc/NEWS?rev=1.1120&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
this is left to emacs-22.
I am just wondering, why they mention emacs-22.1 there, I don't remember an
emacs-22.0

HS

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Kastrup]

Hendrik Sattler <sattler2000@gmx.de> writes:

> nfreimann wrote:
>> 
>> There is a excellent windows binary cvs emacs
>> distribution available at
>> http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net/. Its the best windows
>> emacs ever. Why not supporting a binary cvs gtk2-emacs
>> for linux at ftp.gnu or sourceforge.net? Whats the
>> problem with that?
>
> According to
> http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/emacs/emacs/etc/NEWS?rev=1.1120&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
> this is left to emacs-22.

Which is the next planned release.

> I am just wondering, why they mention emacs-22.1 there, I don't
> remember an emacs-22.0

Traditionally, there has never been an x.0 release for Emacs.  x.0 are
internal prelease numbers.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[August]

On lör, 2005-02-26 at 02:17 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Hendrik Sattler <sattler2000@gmx.de> writes:
> 
> > nfreimann wrote:
> >> 
> >> There is a excellent windows binary cvs emacs
> >> distribution available at
> >> http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net/. Its the best windows
> >> emacs ever. Why not supporting a binary cvs gtk2-emacs
> >> for linux at ftp.gnu or sourceforge.net? Whats the
> >> problem with that?
> >
> > According to
> > http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/emacs/emacs/etc/NEWS?rev=1.1120&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
> > this is left to emacs-22.
> 
> Which is the next planned release.
> 
> > I am just wondering, why they mention emacs-22.1 there, I don't
> > remember an emacs-22.0
> 
> Traditionally, there has never been an x.0 release for Emacs.  x.0 are
> internal prelease numbers.

Is there an approximate date for the 22.1 release?

-- 
August

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Kastrup]

August <fusionfive@comhem.se> writes:

> On lör, 2005-02-26 at 02:17 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Hendrik Sattler <sattler2000@gmx.de> writes:
>> 
>> > nfreimann wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> There is a excellent windows binary cvs emacs
>> >> distribution available at
>> >> http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net/. Its the best windows
>> >> emacs ever. Why not supporting a binary cvs gtk2-emacs
>> >> for linux at ftp.gnu or sourceforge.net? Whats the
>> >> problem with that?
>> >
>> > According to
>> > http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/emacs/emacs/etc/NEWS?rev=1.1120&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
>> > this is left to emacs-22.
>> 
>> Which is the next planned release.
>> 
>> > I am just wondering, why they mention emacs-22.1 there, I don't
>> > remember an emacs-22.0
>> 
>> Traditionally, there has never been an x.0 release for Emacs.  x.0 are
>> internal prelease numbers.
>
> Is there an approximate date for the 22.1 release?

When the
<URL:http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/emacs/emacs/admin/FOR-RELEASE?rev=HEAD>
file has been satisfactorily dealt with and no other pressing fixes or
instabilities require attention.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[Kevin Rodgers]

Klaus Straubinger wrote:
 > Maybe you can forward this information to the correct place.

DIY: If you're using CVS Emacs, `M-x report-emacs-bug'; otherwise just
send mail to emacs-devel@gnu.org.

-- 
Kevin Rodgers

Re: Compiling Emacs with GTK

[David Kastrup]

nfreimann <niels_freimann@yahoo.de> writes:

>  --- August <fusionfive@comhem.se> schrieb: 
>
>> With "the standard Emacs release" I mean the non-CVS
>> version. Will this
>> GUI support make it to the next release?
>
> cvs emacs offers gkt and advanced windows support
> since more than an year. Therefore I wonder that the
> new 21.4 does not support gtk.

21.4 has for a long time been touted as the next great release to
come, with lots of features and so on.  Unfortunately, a serious
security flaw necessitated a quite unplanned release in between,
preempting the version number 21.4.  21.4 is identical to 21.3, with
the single security fix applied.

In order not to confuse people, should something like this be required
again, the next _feature_ release will be called 22.1.  So 22.1 will
definitely support Windows _with_ tooltips and toolbars and images,
and Carbon in the same manner, and GTK.  It is not expected that we
will see a release 21.5, but should it surprise us in the manner that
21.4 did, it will very likely contain nothing like GTK or full Carbon
or Windows support.

> Clearly spoken, emacs without gkt and advanced windows support is
> outdated.  Its looks anachronistic and behaves crippled in linux as
> well as in windows.
>
> There is a excellent windows binary cvs emacs distribution available
> at http://nqmacs.sourceforge.net/. Its the best windows emacs
> ever. Why not supporting a binary cvs gtk2-emacs for linux at
> ftp.gnu or sourceforge.net? Whats the problem with that?

"Supporting a CVS" Emacs is an oxymoron.  The CVS Emacs is notable for
having typically dozens of changes applied daily.  Some of them are
extensive, leading to instability.  Handpicking a reasonable stable
variant, removing debug code, probably applying some fixes while
leaving out others, is work for a QA department.  It would require at
least one person working concentrated on just keeping up the quality
of such a "supported binary".  This sort of QA work does not require
as much qualification as the actual development does, but it still
requires quite a bit of work.  The resulting consistent quality would
probably at this stage of development not be considerable above the
average that we have now, but would basically just have the single
advantage of being consistent: lower chance to catch a lemon that you
would want to fix at most a few days later.

This sort of job could well be done by an average programmer: no
special Emacs programmer would be required for that.

The need does not seem as large as to cause an organized effort,
though.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Compiling Emacs with GTK

[August]

Can I compile Emacs so that it uses GTK style scrollbar and menubar? I
have tried to configure Emacs 21.3 with the `--with-x-toolkit' option,
but it doesn't work.

$ ./configure --with-x-toolkit=gtk
loading cache ./config.cache
configure: error: `--with-x-toolkit=gtk' is invalid\;
this option's value should be `yes', `no', `lucid', `athena', or
`motif'.
Currently, `yes', `athena' and `lucid' are synonyms.

--\x02\x01


\x15±	(
	Ù 
August