From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jambunathan K Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor / Text Properties Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 15:21:27 +0530 Message-ID: <8761rb4jts.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87vbzqfgd6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83d2lrczi7.fsf@gnu.org> <8338mmcsd9.fsf@gnu.org> <83txf1blf2.fsf@gnu.org> <87txf133yd.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <83r4a5bj5x.fsf@gnu.org> <87mwktdy6r.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83iovhb0ez.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3fxdpmg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <837gbwbcsx.fsf@gnu.org> <87d2lnevq7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87ob57rlkb.fsf_-_@informatimago.com> <35e892b1-73b8-4ca2-9317-7eb83e7223e5@default> <464a688e-b7a5-4f6b-84b4-d7cd42107c8d@default> <87li074mxc.fsf@gmail.com> <83zjon7evk.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1385718763 8148 80.91.229.3 (29 Nov 2013 09:52:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:52:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 29 10:52:49 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VmKkh-0001KE-Qz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 10:52:48 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46352 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmKkh-0003Xn-FX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 04:52:47 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47906) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmKkb-0003Xb-0f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 04:52:44 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmKkS-0003Je-TI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 04:52:40 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pd0-x232.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c02::232]:49303) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmKkS-0003JW-Hx; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 04:52:32 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pd0-f178.google.com with SMTP id y10so13506201pdj.37 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 01:52:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=W97u6R69XLv0mH6hrTTMXut/vX0DHkhnRI7hWrJLxVo=; b=Rz+OEA1dw3BhBTWiOVWG1EAd5Wa++Zuqyx3RFnSBtlo4w9xqKZZ1ECjp4p7SKxVUvb 9QDKZu+YqbXh9BZwjHqx8WDgJRHNF4FaVyYd62KBbztfepPaNHpJuYs21Gi8OQrmhYxK 8sI7lW8ovz/ph7wgSf3XQPSjy1oSKyifw6lGcv0NwDHvUASuBIx2p6l4jCRdgl/F6mxr p9YxovMWnWsVE0StSIOxXi7TE3keeW8dh6YL+hOM95juZ5BIGc3Jh9G9/XF7wEIQBexe Ci4sS7E7c9o4X82AUPClD3h7Lx0L843p4ZhB3T8RYbKv5nQat3I3ooL+lMwOT6HY/oTF pgew== X-Received: by 10.68.227.36 with SMTP id rx4mr15073961pbc.128.1385718751185; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 01:52:31 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from debian-6.05 ([101.63.226.171]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qw8sm100931550pbb.27.2013.11.29.01.52.28 for (version=TLSv1.1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Nov 2013 01:52:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83zjon7evk.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 29 Nov 2013 11:10:07 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c02::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:165863 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Jambunathan K >> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 14:14:31 +0530 >> Cc: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" , >> Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org >>=20 >> How about documents that have multiple scripts and one MAY have to >> fiddle with bidi-settings on a per-element basis. > > I must confess I have no idea what you are talking about here: what > "bidi settings"? I have a vague understanding of Bidi based on what I read here: https://web.archive.org/web/20130917205858/http://dotancohen.com/howto/r= tl_right_to_left.html >From that link: ,---- | Word Processor documents |=20 | In OpenOffice Writer, pages can be configured as RTL in Format =E2=86=92 = Page =E2=86=92 | Page =E2=86=92 Text Direction. Paragraphs can be configured to RTL in For= mat =E2=86=92 | Paragraph =E2=86=92 Alignment =E2=86=92 Text Direction. `---- ,---- | HTML code |=20 | HTML is fairly straightforward to configure for RTL. Like word | processors documents, entire pages or individual paragraphs can be set | to RTL. `---- Let me ask you a question back: What if I want a bidi-paragraph-direction where the "directionality is UNLIKE the first strong directional character". Emacs cannot do that. ps: When I ask this question, I assume that the people who wrote the standards have good enough reasons to introduce tag paragraph "explicitly". ,---- | bidi-paragraph-direction is a variable defined in `C source code'. | Its value is nil |=20 | Automatically becomes buffer-local when set. | This variable is safe as a file local variable if its value | satisfies the predicate which is a byte-compiled expression. |=20 | Documentation: | If non-nil, forces directionality of text paragraphs in the buffer. |=20 | If this is nil (the default), the direction of each paragraph is | determined by the first strong directional character of its text. | The values of `right-to-left' and `left-to-right' override that. | Any other value is treated as nil. |=20 `---- >> (Things like Bidi are not only about aesthetics but also tied >> directly to the "content".) > > Again, if this is a real issue, please elaborate. Bidi is neither > about aesthetics nor about "content", it's about displaying certain > scripts as their readers require. To understand that, imagine that > you need to read English text where the order of the characters was > reversed. I guess you won't be amused. I was responding to Raman and merely noting that word-processing mode cannot be discerned just in terms of aesthetics or content alone. Directonality is neither about aesthetic nor about content but about convention. It falls in a no-man land. >> Now if you want to have Tables with Bidi-text then Orgmode is >> practically useless. > > "Practically useless" is a wild exaggeration. I use it just fine. This is not a criticism of Bidi. This thread is about why an word-processing mode would make sense INSPITE of powerfulness of Org-mode. Currently, in Org-mode, one cannot have multi-paragraph tables. Assuming that in near future, it does support such tables, how would one go about fixing the directionality. > But yes, there are several features of the UBA that Emacs supports > which can improve this. Org Mode should use those features when > appropriate. Unfortunately, too many Emacs modes, Org included, still > treat text as a unidirectional stream of characters that will keep > their logical order on display, and don't cater enough to the needs of > bidirectional scripts. I expect Org users who work with those scripts > to submit bug reports with specific use cases, and ask the Org > maintainers to use the above-mentioned features. Bottom line is this: Org-mode is useful in practice but it falls way short of being a "complete" system. It is here that a word-processing mode will be extremely useful. Let me re-iterate, I am responding to Raman whose comment vaguely implied that the coupling between content and display is loose enough to the point of being non-existent and that content with a very lightweight markup would serve "complete" set of needs. Here is a case of Chinese user saying that Org's notion of emphasis markers is in conflict with the realities of his language. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2012-11/msg00564.html