From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor / Text Properties
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 15:21:27 +0530 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <8761rb4jts.fsf@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83zjon7evk.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 29 Nov 2013 11:10:07 +0200")
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
>> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 14:14:31 +0530
>> Cc: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com>,
>> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> How about documents that have multiple scripts and one MAY have to
>> fiddle with bidi-settings on a per-element basis.
>
> I must confess I have no idea what you are talking about here: what
> "bidi settings"?
I have a vague understanding of Bidi based on what I read here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130917205858/http://dotancohen.com/howto/rtl_right_to_left.html
From that link:
,----
| Word Processor documents
|
| In OpenOffice Writer, pages can be configured as RTL in Format → Page →
| Page → Text Direction. Paragraphs can be configured to RTL in Format →
| Paragraph → Alignment → Text Direction.
`----
,----
| HTML code
|
| HTML is fairly straightforward to configure for RTL. Like word
| processors documents, entire pages or individual paragraphs can be set
| to RTL.
`----
Let me ask you a question back:
What if I want a bidi-paragraph-direction where the "directionality is
UNLIKE the first strong directional character".
Emacs cannot do that.
ps: When I ask this question, I assume that the people who wrote the
standards have good enough reasons to introduce tag paragraph
"explicitly".
,----
| bidi-paragraph-direction is a variable defined in `C source code'.
| Its value is nil
|
| Automatically becomes buffer-local when set.
| This variable is safe as a file local variable if its value
| satisfies the predicate which is a byte-compiled expression.
|
| Documentation:
| If non-nil, forces directionality of text paragraphs in the buffer.
|
| If this is nil (the default), the direction of each paragraph is
| determined by the first strong directional character of its text.
| The values of `right-to-left' and `left-to-right' override that.
| Any other value is treated as nil.
|
`----
>> (Things like Bidi are not only about aesthetics but also tied
>> directly to the "content".)
>
> Again, if this is a real issue, please elaborate. Bidi is neither
> about aesthetics nor about "content", it's about displaying certain
> scripts as their readers require. To understand that, imagine that
> you need to read English text where the order of the characters was
> reversed. I guess you won't be amused.
I was responding to Raman and merely noting that word-processing mode
cannot be discerned just in terms of aesthetics or content alone.
Directonality is neither about aesthetic nor about content but about
convention. It falls in a no-man land.
>> Now if you want to have Tables with Bidi-text then Orgmode is
>> practically useless.
>
> "Practically useless" is a wild exaggeration. I use it just fine.
This is not a criticism of Bidi. This thread is about why an
word-processing mode would make sense INSPITE of powerfulness of
Org-mode.
Currently, in Org-mode, one cannot have multi-paragraph tables.
Assuming that in near future, it does support such tables, how would one
go about fixing the directionality.
> But yes, there are several features of the UBA that Emacs supports
> which can improve this. Org Mode should use those features when
> appropriate. Unfortunately, too many Emacs modes, Org included, still
> treat text as a unidirectional stream of characters that will keep
> their logical order on display, and don't cater enough to the needs of
> bidirectional scripts. I expect Org users who work with those scripts
> to submit bug reports with specific use cases, and ask the Org
> maintainers to use the above-mentioned features.
Bottom line is this:
Org-mode is useful in practice but it falls way short of being a
"complete" system. It is here that a word-processing mode will be
extremely useful.
Let me re-iterate, I am responding to Raman whose comment vaguely
implied that the coupling between content and display is loose enough to
the point of being non-existent and that content with a very lightweight
markup would serve "complete" set of needs.
Here is a case of Chinese user saying that Org's notion of emphasis
markers is in conflict with the realities of his language.
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2012-11/msg00564.html
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-11-29 9:51 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 237+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-11-17 7:28 Emacs as word processor Richard Stallman
2013-11-17 8:18 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-18 18:44 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-18 22:12 ` Rasmus
2013-11-19 6:02 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 8:01 ` joakim
2013-11-19 23:42 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-20 6:54 ` joakim
2013-11-20 18:01 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-23 6:07 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 10:57 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-19 12:20 ` Thorsten Jolitz
2013-11-19 14:35 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-19 13:28 ` Sivaram Neelakantan
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-26 8:38 ` Tom
2013-11-26 15:58 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-26 23:08 ` Bastien
2013-11-26 23:26 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-12-15 16:16 ` Steinar Bang
2013-11-17 11:16 ` Daniel Colascione
2013-11-17 13:02 ` Nic Ferrier
2013-11-17 13:55 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-17 14:15 ` Juergen Fenn
2013-11-17 18:57 ` chad
2013-11-18 4:20 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-18 5:06 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
[not found] ` <"<l6dsng$6h4$1"@ger.gmane.org>
[not found] ` <"<87mwl04w3k.fsf"@zigzag.favinet>
[not found] ` <l6dsng$6h4$1"@ger.gmane.org>
[not found] ` <87mwl04w3k.fsf"@zigzag.favinet>
2013-11-18 18:44 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-18 19:42 ` Sean Sieger
2013-11-18 19:46 ` Sean Sieger
2013-11-19 6:01 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 7:08 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-18 20:19 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-11-19 6:02 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 8:46 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-11-19 9:39 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-19 11:21 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-19 14:35 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-11-19 15:54 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-21 15:25 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-11-21 16:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-21 21:27 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-21 22:03 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-22 0:51 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-22 6:37 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-22 21:06 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-22 15:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 15:26 ` Davis Herring
2013-11-22 16:06 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-22 17:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 19:01 ` John Yates
2013-11-22 21:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <CAJnXXoi2biZ0uOAB9s-0Y5=9EujpCV4a=CemR-K+wHeJVSB51A@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <83a9gvcyq3.fsf@gnu.org>
2013-11-23 15:13 ` John Yates
2013-11-23 15:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 16:43 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-23 17:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 21:12 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-25 17:51 ` John Yates
2013-11-25 18:02 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-25 18:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-25 18:54 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-25 18:52 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-26 7:26 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-22 21:06 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-22 21:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 22:01 ` John Yates
2013-11-22 22:56 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-23 7:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 22:53 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-23 8:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 13:42 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-24 8:13 ` PJ Weisberg
2013-11-24 17:44 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-25 20:42 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-11-25 21:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-25 21:21 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-11-25 21:54 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
[not found] ` <<877gc14vzs.fsf@zigzag.favinet>
[not found] ` <<E1Vjbn0-0005Bd-4Z@fencepost.gnu.org>
2013-11-21 22:12 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-22 7:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 13:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-22 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 14:50 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-22 15:39 ` Yuri Khan
2013-11-22 16:07 ` John Yates
2013-11-23 6:06 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-23 8:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 21:12 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-24 4:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-24 18:37 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-24 20:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-24 20:52 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-24 21:06 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-11-24 21:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-25 2:15 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-25 3:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-25 5:20 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-25 17:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-26 2:35 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-26 3:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-26 7:05 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-26 15:34 ` John Yates
2013-11-26 16:57 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-26 18:47 ` John Yates
2013-11-26 15:04 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-26 19:51 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-26 20:36 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-26 19:48 ` Emacs as word processor / Text Properties Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-27 2:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-27 22:26 ` T.V. Raman
2013-11-27 23:01 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-27 23:06 ` T.V. Raman
2013-11-27 23:48 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-28 0:50 ` T.V. Raman
2013-11-28 1:27 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-28 4:04 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-28 6:03 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-28 7:13 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-28 7:34 ` Bastien
2013-11-28 8:53 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-29 8:44 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 8:49 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 8:52 ` Bastien
2013-11-29 9:01 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 9:05 ` Bastien
2013-11-29 9:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-29 9:51 ` Jambunathan K [this message]
2013-11-29 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-29 13:42 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 14:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-29 16:47 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 19:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-29 14:18 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 15:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-29 10:06 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-29 6:50 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-30 1:09 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-02 20:04 ` Emacs as word processor Hendrik Boom
2013-11-25 3:06 ` Yuri Khan
2013-11-26 0:04 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-22 17:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 0:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-23 6:06 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-23 6:05 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-23 6:05 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-15 16:39 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-16 17:19 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-16 18:02 ` Jambunathan K
2013-12-16 18:38 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-12-17 10:52 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-17 11:39 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-16 19:10 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-17 10:52 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-16 20:37 ` Juan M. Gonzalez
2013-12-17 10:53 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-17 11:41 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-17 11:48 ` Achim Gratz
2013-12-17 12:22 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-17 21:06 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-19 7:28 ` Bastien
2013-12-19 18:23 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-19 18:45 ` Bastien
2013-12-19 23:24 ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-21 6:02 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-21 14:34 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-11-21 21:16 ` Tom
2013-11-22 6:54 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-22 7:22 ` Ivan Andrus
2013-11-22 13:26 ` Rüdiger Sonderfeld
2013-11-22 6:54 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-20 18:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-21 8:00 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-21 16:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-21 18:34 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-21 19:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 7:28 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-21 9:15 ` Bastien
2013-11-21 9:22 ` Bastien
2013-11-21 16:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-21 17:43 ` Bastien
2013-11-22 10:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 20:44 ` Thorsten Jolitz
2013-11-22 6:54 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-22 7:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 7:52 ` Bastien
2013-11-22 11:36 ` Rasmus
2013-11-19 8:04 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-19 23:42 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 9:02 ` Christoph
2013-11-19 19:22 ` chad
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-18 13:59 ` Rasmus
2013-11-17 15:27 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-18 17:26 ` Christopher Allan Webber
2013-11-18 17:31 ` Tom Tromey
2013-11-19 9:20 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-19 6:01 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 7:44 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-19 13:32 ` Jay Belanger
2013-11-19 15:16 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-20 1:50 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-15 17:28 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-15 18:18 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-16 0:17 ` T.V. Raman
2013-12-16 10:20 ` Juan M. Gonzalez
2013-11-19 6:14 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-22 16:19 ` Karl Voit
2013-11-22 18:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-24 11:11 ` Emacs will never be a WYSIWYG-editor and should not try to (was: Emacs as word processor) Karl Voit
2013-11-24 15:01 ` Emacs will never be a WYSIWYG-editor and should not try to Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-11-24 16:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-24 17:27 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-25 12:24 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-26 7:01 ` Bastien
2013-11-26 9:10 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-26 9:15 ` Bastien
2013-11-26 9:34 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-26 9:34 ` Bastien
2013-11-26 15:58 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-26 18:28 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-26 21:45 ` Achim Gratz
2013-11-27 7:44 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-26 15:58 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-26 21:33 ` Achim Gratz
2013-11-24 18:36 ` Emacs will never be a WYSIWYG-editor and should not try to (was: Emacs as word processor) Richard Stallman
2013-11-23 6:06 ` Emacs as word processor Richard Stallman
2013-12-02 19:30 ` Hendrik Boom
2013-12-03 6:24 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-12-03 9:54 ` René Kyllingstad
2013-12-03 11:36 ` Jambunathan K
2013-12-03 16:32 ` T.V. Raman
2013-12-03 17:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-08 17:08 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-12-13 22:28 ` Juan M. Gonzalez
[not found] <"<E1Vhwmp-0001x4-Pa"@fencepost.gnu.org>
[not found] <E1Vhwmp-0001x4-Pa"@fencepost.gnu.org>
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