bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Roland Hughes]

--text follows this line--

I created a named buffer and pasted a few hundred lines of numbers in 
it. When I
tried to enter the command "sort-lines reverse" as soon as I hit the 
spacebar I
was greeted with [SoleCompletion] and could not enter the parameter.



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-- 
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net
http://www.johnsmith-book.com
http://www.logikalblog.com
http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com>
> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:34:58 -0500
> 
> I created a named buffer and pasted a few hundred lines of numbers in 
> it. When I
> tried to enter the command "sort-lines reverse" as soon as I hit the 
> spacebar I
> was greeted with [SoleCompletion] and could not enter the parameter.

If you want to sort lines in reverse order, you need to provide a
prefix argument: "C-u M-x sort-lines RET".

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Roland Hughes]

It won't let me enter the argument, that is the point of the bug.

On 4/18/20 11:13 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com>
>> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:34:58 -0500
>>
>> I created a named buffer and pasted a few hundred lines of numbers in
>> it. When I
>> tried to enter the command "sort-lines reverse" as soon as I hit the
>> spacebar I
>> was greeted with [SoleCompletion] and could not enter the parameter.
> If you want to sort lines in reverse order, you need to provide a
> prefix argument: "C-u M-x sort-lines RET".

-- 
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net
http://www.johnsmith-book.com
http://www.logikalblog.com
http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: 40697@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com>
> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:43:12 -0500
> 
> It won't let me enter the argument, that is the point of the bug.

I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean by "enter the
argument".  Please elaborate.

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Roland Hughes]

On 4/18/20 1:53 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Cc: 40697@debbugs.gnu.org
>> From: Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com>
>> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:43:12 -0500
>>
>> It won't let me enter the argument, that is the point of the bug.
> I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean by "enter the
> argument".  Please elaborate.

According to the help text and the online doc

===

sort-lines is an interactive compiled Lisp function.

(sort-lines REVERSE BEG END)

===

I have EDT emulation on (biggest draw ever!)

[GOLD]-7

brings up the M-x prompt without my having to remember cryptic keystrokes.

If I type

sort-lines [RETURN]

it sorts the entire buffer as expect. No prompt for an optional 
argument, the sort just happens.

If I type

sort-lines[spacebar]

I get the [Sole Completion] message and the cursor remains firmly mushed 
against the "s". I tried [TAB], I tried everything. There is no way to 
enter

sort-lines REVERSE [RETURN]

_that_ is my bug report.

On Linux I have the version from the Emacs PPA. On Windows 10 it came 
straight from the GNU site. Both behave exactly the same way.

All of the sort-something commands work from [GOLD]-7. You just cannot 
enter any parameters.

I started using Emacs specifically for EDT emulation.


-- 
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net
http://www.johnsmith-book.com
http://www.logikalblog.com
http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Štěpán Němec]

On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:34:58 -0500
Roland Hughes wrote:

> --text follows this line--
>
> I created a named buffer and pasted a few hundred lines of numbers in
> it. When I
> tried to enter the command "sort-lines reverse" as soon as I hit the
> spacebar I
> was greeted with [SoleCompletion] and could not enter the parameter.

The documentation string of `sort-line' reads:

---8<---
Sort lines in region alphabetically; argument means descending order.
Called from a program, there are three arguments:
REVERSE (non-nil means reverse order), BEG and END (region to sort).
The variable ‘sort-fold-case’ determines whether alphabetic case affects
the sort order.
--->8---

Note the "called from a program" before description of the arguments.

"argument" in the first sentence means the prefix argument during
interactive calls, as described in (info "(emacs) Arguments")

Maybe we should improve the wording? Would just saying "When called
interactively, prefix argument means sort in descending order" be
enough?

-- 
Štěpán

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Štěpán Němec
>  <stepnem@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:15:37 +0200
> Cc: 40697@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Maybe we should improve the wording? Would just saying "When called
> interactively, prefix argument means sort in descending order" be
> enough?

Yes, and BEG/END being the region was also not described.  I fixed
that now.

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Yes, and BEG/END being the region was also not described.  I fixed
> that now.

(I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved
at the time.)

The discussion then went on to using EDT, but skimming this bug report,
the documentation was fixed, so I don't think there's anything more to
do here, so I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Roland Hughes]

Okay, I was not descriptive enough.

In interactive mode you cannot enter the argument but according to the 
documentation I should be able to. To enter an argument I would have to 
be able to use the space bar after entering sort-lines. When I try using 
the spacebar I get [SoleCompletion] and no space. Cannot enter argument.

On 4/18/20 11:15 AM, Štěpán Němec wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:34:58 -0500
> Roland Hughes wrote:
>
>> --text follows this line--
>>
>> I created a named buffer and pasted a few hundred lines of numbers in
>> it. When I
>> tried to enter the command "sort-lines reverse" as soon as I hit the
>> spacebar I
>> was greeted with [SoleCompletion] and could not enter the parameter.
> The documentation string of `sort-line' reads:
>
> ---8<---
> Sort lines in region alphabetically; argument means descending order.
> Called from a program, there are three arguments:
> REVERSE (non-nil means reverse order), BEG and END (region to sort).
> The variable ‘sort-fold-case’ determines whether alphabetic case affects
> the sort order.
> --->8---
>
> Note the "called from a program" before description of the arguments.
>
> "argument" in the first sentence means the prefix argument during
> interactive calls, as described in (info "(emacs) Arguments")
>
> Maybe we should improve the wording? Would just saying "When called
> interactively, prefix argument means sort in descending order" be
> enough?
>
-- 
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net
http://www.johnsmith-book.com
http://www.logikalblog.com
http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Štěpán Němec]

On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:45:17 -0500
Roland Hughes wrote:

> Okay, I was not descriptive enough.
>
> In interactive mode you cannot enter the argument but according to the
> documentation I should be able to. To enter an argument I would have
> to be able to use the space bar after entering sort-lines. When I try
> using the spacebar I get [SoleCompletion] and no space. Cannot enter
> argument.

I think you misunderstand. The command does not read any arguments. The
"argument" mentioned in the doc string is the interactive _prefix_
argument.

Please do have a look at the manual section I mentioned:

  (info "(emacs) Arguments")

(you can put point after the closing paren and press C-x C-e)

Or even try the Emacs tutorial (C-h t) if it's still unclear.

Also, Eli has since tried to clarify the doc string on the emacs-27
branch:

2020-04-18T19:26:30+03:00!eliz@gnu.org
6c187ed6b0 (Improve documentation of 'sort-lines')
https://git.sv.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=6c187ed6b0

-- 
Štěpán

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Roland Hughes]

On 4/18/20 2:12 PM, Štěpán Němec wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:45:17 -0500
> Roland Hughes wrote:
>
>> Okay, I was not descriptive enough.
>>
>> In interactive mode you cannot enter the argument but according to the
>> documentation I should be able to. To enter an argument I would have
>> to be able to use the space bar after entering sort-lines. When I try
>> using the spacebar I get [SoleCompletion] and no space. Cannot enter
>> argument.
> I think you misunderstand. The command does not read any arguments. The
> "argument" mentioned in the doc string is the interactive _prefix_
> argument.
>
> Please do have a look at the manual section I mentioned:
>
>    (info "(emacs) Arguments")
>
> (you can put point after the closing paren and press C-x C-e)
>
> Or even try the Emacs tutorial (C-h t) if it's still unclear.
>
> Also, Eli has since tried to clarify the doc string on the emacs-27
> branch:
>
> 2020-04-18T19:26:30+03:00!eliz@gnu.org
> 6c187ed6b0 (Improve documentation of 'sort-lines')
> https://git.sv.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=6c187ed6b0
>
The biggest turn-off for most new users, even of GUI Emacs is the 
endless string of C-u M-x C-h letter sequences. EDT mode was a big draw 
because it could eliminate almost all of that. I've been in IT over 30 
years and never found anything more intuitive than keypad navigation.

C-u [GOLD]-7 doesn't reliably work. It works the first time, but if you 
try another sort in the same buffer they don't seem to work. I got 
similar results with C-u M-x in a shiny new buffer with the same data. 
First sort worked, second one didn't.

 From the doc I was really hoping they (whoever they are) had made Emacs 
more intuitive with EDT mode.

[GOLD]-7 sort-lines reverse [RETURN]

is much more intuitive IMO, as someone who used EDT for years. I've also 
done Linux and embedded systems work for years too.

The emacswiki site was much more informative than the doc.

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Sorting

According to the doc the "sort-lines reverse" should have worked. The 
wiki doesn't even present that as a possibility.

Thanks for the assistance.

-- 
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net
http://www.johnsmith-book.com
http://www.logikalblog.com
http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com>
> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:45:17 -0500
> Cc: 40697@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Okay, I was not descriptive enough.
> 
> In interactive mode you cannot enter the argument but according to the 
> documentation I should be able to. To enter an argument I would have to 
> be able to use the space bar after entering sort-lines. When I try using 
> the spacebar I get [SoleCompletion] and no space. Cannot enter argument.

I modified the doc string to say this instead:

  Sort lines in region alphabetically; REVERSE non-nil means descending order.
  Interactively, REVERSE is the prefix argument, and BEG and END are the region.
  Called from a program, there are three arguments:
  REVERSE (non-nil means reverse order), BEG and END (region to sort).
  The variable ‘sort-fold-case’ determines whether alphabetic case affects
  the sort order.

Does this modified doc string resolve the issue you had?

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Roland Hughes]

On 4/18/20 2:27 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com>
>> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:45:17 -0500
>> Cc: 40697@debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>> Okay, I was not descriptive enough.
>>
>> In interactive mode you cannot enter the argument but according to the
>> documentation I should be able to. To enter an argument I would have to
>> be able to use the space bar after entering sort-lines. When I try using
>> the spacebar I get [SoleCompletion] and no space. Cannot enter argument.
> I modified the doc string to say this instead:
>
>    Sort lines in region alphabetically; REVERSE non-nil means descending order.
>    Interactively, REVERSE is the prefix argument, and BEG and END are the region.
>    Called from a program, there are three arguments:
>    REVERSE (non-nil means reverse order), BEG and END (region to sort).
>    The variable ‘sort-fold-case’ determines whether alphabetic case affects
>    the sort order.
>
> Does this modified doc string resolve the issue you had?

No, the wiki page does.

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Sorting

The wording in the help text is rather expert friendly. A user coming in 
cold to Emacs is going to interpret "prefix argument" as

[GOLD]-7 REVERSE sort-lines [RETURN]

I've been getting back into Emacs because I was getting back into COBOL 
and working with GNUCOBOL. Emacs is currently as close to an IDE as 
their is until one of the 3.x versions of GNUCOBOL is officially 
released. It will work with a few more then. EDT on GUI Emacs makes the 
editor vastly more accessible to anyone who has used EDT, LSE, JED (with 
EDT keypad enabled) and others than mirror the EDT keypad.

Of course, any time I have to deep dive to get into something I tend to 
write a book about it.

https://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com/app_book.html

The GUI Emacs book focusing on using EDT keypad is almost complete. Sort 
was the last topic before creating cover art, tagging indexes, and 
sending off for first round edit.

-- 
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net
http://www.johnsmith-book.com
http://www.logikalblog.com
http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: stepnem@gmail.com, 40697@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com>
> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:48:19 -0500
> 
> The wording in the help text is rather expert friendly. A user coming in 
> cold to Emacs is going to interpret "prefix argument" as
> 
> [GOLD]-7 REVERSE sort-lines [RETURN]

I can only say that I used the terminology and style that are used
everywhere in our doc strings.

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Roland Hughes]

On 4/19/20 8:08 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Cc: stepnem@gmail.com, 40697@debbugs.gnu.org
>> From: Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com>
>> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:48:19 -0500
>>
>> The wording in the help text is rather expert friendly. A user coming in
>> cold to Emacs is going to interpret "prefix argument" as
>>
>> [GOLD]-7 REVERSE sort-lines [RETURN]
> I can only say that I used the terminology and style that are used
> everywhere in our doc strings.

Yeah, I know. Not slamming you. Just pointing out the reason more 
people, especially from non-Linux platforms don't use Emacs is the 
"expert friendly" doc and culture around it. One must know all of the 
secret handshakes to join the club. New people, especially from a 
Windows world, aren't willing to do that. The GUI version of Emacs was a 
giant step in the right direction. Combined with EDT emulation it can 
eliminate needing to know most of the super secret handshakes.

Perhaps the "correct" solution here is for EDT or the sort- maintainers 
to add -reverse versions of each method so they are a single command 
with a common naming format requiring no super secret handshakes.

[GOLD]-7 sort-lines [RETURN]

[GOLD]-7 sort-lines-reverse [RETURN]

same with numbers and a few of the others. They would just be a wrapper 
layer, but they would provide an easily digestible interface for those 
not looking to become one with the internals of Emacs or Linux.

-- 
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net
http://www.johnsmith-book.com
http://www.logikalblog.com
http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Noam Postavsky]

Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com> writes:

> On 4/19/20 8:08 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>>> Cc: stepnem@gmail.com, 40697@debbugs.gnu.org
>>> From: Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com>
>>> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:48:19 -0500
>>>
>>> The wording in the help text is rather expert friendly. A user coming in
>>> cold to Emacs is going to interpret "prefix argument" as
>>>
>>> [GOLD]-7 REVERSE sort-lines [RETURN]
>> I can only say that I used the terminology and style that are used
>> everywhere in our doc strings.
>
> Yeah, I know. Not slamming you. Just pointing out the reason more
> people, especially from non-Linux platforms don't use Emacs is the
> "expert friendly" doc and culture around it. One must know all of the
> secret handshakes to join the club. New people, especially from a
> Windows world, aren't willing to do that. The GUI version of Emacs was
> a giant step in the right direction. Combined with EDT emulation it
> can eliminate needing to know most of the super secret handshakes.

Um, how many users "coming in cold to Emacs" will be coming from EDT, do
you think?  It seems to me that adding stuff to the docs about EDT style
args everywhere will only add more confusing "secret handshakes".

> Perhaps the "correct" solution here is for EDT or the sort-
> maintainers to add -reverse versions of each method so they are a
> single command with a common naming format requiring no super secret
> handshakes.
>
> [GOLD]-7 sort-lines [RETURN]
>
> [GOLD]-7 sort-lines-reverse [RETURN]
>
> same with numbers and a few of the others. They would just be a
> wrapper layer, but they would provide an easily digestible interface
> for those not looking to become one with the internals of Emacs or
> Linux.

Not sure where are any EDT maintainers at the moment, but I agree it
does sound useful for the emulation to be extended in this way.

bug#40697: 25.3; sort-lines not accepting reverse parameter

[Roland Hughes]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3426 bytes --]


On 4/19/20 11:21 AM, Noam Postavsky wrote:
> Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/19/20 8:08 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>>>> Cc: stepnem@gmail.com, 40697@debbugs.gnu.org
>>>> From: Roland Hughes <roland@logikalsolutions.com>
>>>> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:48:19 -0500
>>>>
>>>> The wording in the help text is rather expert friendly. A user coming in
>>>> cold to Emacs is going to interpret "prefix argument" as
>>>>
>>>> [GOLD]-7 REVERSE sort-lines [RETURN]
>>> I can only say that I used the terminology and style that are used
>>> everywhere in our doc strings.
>> Yeah, I know. Not slamming you. Just pointing out the reason more
>> people, especially from non-Linux platforms don't use Emacs is the
>> "expert friendly" doc and culture around it. One must know all of the
>> secret handshakes to join the club. New people, especially from a
>> Windows world, aren't willing to do that. The GUI version of Emacs was
>> a giant step in the right direction. Combined with EDT emulation it
>> can eliminate needing to know most of the super secret handshakes.
> Um, how many users "coming in cold to Emacs" will be coming from EDT, do
> you think?  It seems to me that adding stuff to the docs about EDT style
> args everywhere will only add more confusing "secret handshakes".

Not as much the point as the attached image is not only easier to 
understand and can be printed then taped to the keyboard/monitor.

There are actually still a lot of people using EDT keypad mode in 
various editors both on and off of VMS. One of the reasons JED has such 
a large community is they emulate EDT well. They even manage to make 
NUMLOCK_IS_GOLD work. (Another bug I need to fine because I can do this 
in Windows 10 and Linux with Qt just fine.

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/doc/jed/html/jed006.html

One of the biggest complaints about Emacs on OpenVMS I always here is 
the complete inability to map NumLock to GOLD. Actually it is the 
biggest complaint on all platforms once people get used to keypad 
navigation.

>
>> Perhaps the "correct" solution here is for EDT or the sort-
>> maintainers to add -reverse versions of each method so they are a
>> single command with a common naming format requiring no super secret
>> handshakes.
>>
>> [GOLD]-7 sort-lines [RETURN]
>>
>> [GOLD]-7 sort-lines-reverse [RETURN]
>>
>> same with numbers and a few of the others. They would just be a
>> wrapper layer, but they would provide an easily digestible interface
>> for those not looking to become one with the internals of Emacs or
>> Linux.
> Not sure where are any EDT maintainers at the moment, but I agree it
> does sound useful for the emulation to be extended in this way.

If I get some free time I may just hack at a version for the book. It 
seems I should be able to create a command called sort-lines-reverse in 
my .emacs file and have it issue sort-lines with the prefix. I should be 
able to remove almost all of the "secret handshakes" for basic editing. 
Was trying to keep the book under 250 pages for printing reasons, but it 
isn't that big of a hit to push into the 250-300 page count price range 
for printing.

Thank you for all of your assistance.

-- 
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net
http://www.johnsmith-book.com
http://www.logikalblog.com
http://www.interestingauthors.com/blog


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