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* Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers
@ 2020-04-20  6:22 ndame
  2020-04-20 10:08 ` Po Lu
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread
From: ndame @ 2020-04-20  6:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emacs developers

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> It is not that they are lazy, just like people who use a machine to do their
> laundry instead of doing it by hand, they use tools that have been developed
> without the historical constraints of Emacs.

The majority of developers don't like to mold their editor so much, like
hardcore emacs users mold emacs.

They may change the colors, the fonts, maybe some keybindings, but
that's it. They want an editor which looks pleasant and does most
things out of the box without additional tinkering.

VSCode does this well. It provides a great out of box experience, most
things work out of the box, or just a plugin install away. In case of
LSP it may also download and install an LSP server, not just a client.

Most developers want an experience like this where everything works
with minimal tinkering.

I don't think it's realistic for Emacs to compete with that. There are
the legal issues, for example, which I assume prevent installing
Non-GNU binaries from the net and not all LSP servers have GNU license
AFAIK.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers
@ 2020-04-27 17:50 ndame
  2020-04-27 18:07 ` Arthur Miller
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 108+ messages in thread
From: ndame @ 2020-04-27 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emacs developers


> The article is here:
>
> https://download.blender.org/documentation/pdf/LXF204.feat_3d.5cjt.pdf

That's not it, google found a version, some excerpts:

"Blender developers – would defend the software’s defiantly idiosyncratic UI on the grounds that ‘different doesn’t always mean worse’. Blender could do everything that other 3D packages could, they argued, and given a little time, it was possible to adapt your old working methods to a new combination of icons, keyboard shortcuts and menu commands. But for artists working in visual effects or game development – notoriously high-pressure industries, particularly when deadlines are looming – time is at a premium. Many people who might otherwise have loved Blender got no further than its splash screen"

...

"Others struck at the heart of Blender veterans’ sense of identity and even their muscle memory. In almost every other 3D application, you leftclick to select things. In Blender, prior to 2.80, you rightclicked by default. Supporters argued that it made for a faster, more precise workflow – but it was also alien to artists coming to Blender from other software."

...


https://www.pressreader.com/australia/linux-format/20191217/281745566267591



There are obvious similarities with Emacs' current situation.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers
@ 2020-04-21 15:27 ndame
  2020-04-22  3:14 ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread
From: ndame @ 2020-04-21 15:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emacs developers

> > We should prioritize existing users over hypothetical users that don't
> > even exist yet.

> And then, another 20 years pass, the current users get too old/change careers/retire/etc, and Emacs's userbase shrinks even more.

True, that's why some solution is needed which makes emacs more accessible
for new users who wants to try emacs.

The solution mentioned earlier in the thread can work well: Emacs defaults
stay Emacs-like to satisfy the veterans, but if a new user downloads
emacs and starts it without a config file then an optional initial config is
prominently offered which can ease the transition for new users, make emacs
less alien, more similar to existing systems.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread
* RE: "Why is emacs so square?"
@ 2020-04-16 14:58 Drew Adams
  2020-04-16 15:34 ` Joseph Garvin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 108+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2020-04-16 14:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii, rms; +Cc: emacs-devel, stefan, ndame

> I'd like to remind all of us that
> there's a lot of "propaganda" out there telling everyone to turn off
> GUI features such as the menu bar and the tool bar.  The network is
> full of personal init files that "proudly" do that, and forums like
> Reddit are full of such advice to every newbie who asks about
> configuring their Emacs.  It is hard to be enthusiastic about making
> these features more modern when the community seems to be divided on
> whether they should at all be present.  IMO, we should first get our
> act together and decide whether these features are important, and then
> speak up according to those decisions when we see advice to the
> contrary.

+1

And count me as one vote for the menu-bar being
important, especially for discoverability.  The
tool-bar is less important, IMO, but I'd still
vote to keep it.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 108+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-05-07  2:48 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 108+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-04-20  6:22 Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers ndame
2020-04-20 10:08 ` Po Lu
2020-04-21  1:50   ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-21  2:09     ` Po Lu
2020-04-21  8:44       ` Theodor Thornhill
2020-04-22  4:30         ` Po Lu
2020-04-22  7:01           ` Theodor Thornhill
2020-04-23  3:10             ` Po Lu
2020-04-22 16:45           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-22 17:16             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-23  3:11             ` Po Lu
2020-04-23 12:55               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-24  5:24                 ` Po Lu
2020-04-26 18:40             ` Yuan Fu
2020-04-27  4:00               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-24  2:34           ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-24  2:39             ` 조성빈
2020-04-24  2:42               ` 조성빈
2020-04-24  7:33               ` Theodor Thornhill
2020-04-25  3:30               ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-25  3:32                 ` 조성빈
2020-04-26  3:19                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-26 14:32                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 15:14                       ` tomas
2020-04-26 16:32                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 16:36                           ` tomas
2020-04-21  2:10     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-21  3:45       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-21  4:44         ` chad
2020-04-22  3:19       ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-22  3:31         ` Dmitry Gutov
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-04-27 17:50 ndame
2020-04-27 18:07 ` Arthur Miller
2020-04-28  0:13 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-30  2:26 ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-30  5:58   ` ndame
2020-05-02  2:21     ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-02 15:52       ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-02 15:59         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-02 17:00           ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-02 18:20             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-02 18:55               ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-04  3:05                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-05 14:08                   ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-06  4:46                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-06 18:14                       ` Nikita Mogilevsky
2020-05-07  2:48                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-02 16:25         ` ndame
2020-05-02 19:04         ` Drew Adams
2020-05-02 19:36           ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-02 20:05             ` Drew Adams
2020-05-02 21:16               ` Arthur Miller
2020-05-02 22:16                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-03  3:42         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-05 13:58           ` Arthur Miller
2020-04-21 15:27 ndame
2020-04-22  3:14 ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-16 14:58 "Why is emacs so square?" Drew Adams
2020-04-16 15:34 ` Joseph Garvin
2020-04-17 22:05   ` Ahmed Khanzada
2020-04-19  2:18     ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-19  2:33       ` Po Lu
2020-04-19  4:55         ` ndame
2020-04-19  6:14           ` Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers (was: "Why is emacs so square?") Po Lu
2020-04-19  6:54             ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-04-19  7:22               ` Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Po Lu
2020-04-19  8:05             ` Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers (was: "Why is emacs so square?") 조성빈
2020-04-19  8:12               ` ndame
2020-04-19  8:21                 ` Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Po Lu
2020-04-19  8:25                   ` ndame
2020-04-19  9:30                     ` Po Lu
2020-04-19 22:44                     ` Sébastien Gendre
2020-04-20  0:36                       ` Stefan Kangas
2020-04-20  3:32                         ` Tim Cross
2020-04-20  9:54                           ` Po Lu
2020-04-20 13:50                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-21  8:52                               ` Po Lu
2020-04-21 13:57                               ` Simen Heggestøyl
2020-04-21 15:36                                 ` Yuan Fu
2020-04-22  3:14                                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-22  4:33                                   ` Po Lu
2020-04-23  6:33                                     ` Ahmed Khanzada
2020-04-23 10:14                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2020-04-23 14:55                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-20  4:53                       ` Po Lu
2020-04-20  6:08                         ` 조성빈
2020-04-20  9:53                           ` Po Lu
2020-04-20 13:07                             ` 조성빈
2020-04-20 15:32                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-21  2:06                               ` Po Lu
2020-04-21  2:17                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-21  4:42                                   ` Po Lu
2020-04-21 13:55                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-22  4:41                                       ` Po Lu
2020-04-22  8:13                                         ` Sergey Organov
2020-04-22  3:19                                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-22 11:33                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-23  7:04                                   ` Ahmed Khanzada
2020-04-23 14:20                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-23 14:56                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-23 15:32                                       ` Yuan Fu
2020-04-27 16:09                                       ` Arthur Miller
2020-04-27 16:43                                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-04-20 14:22                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-21 12:43                         ` Sébastien Gendre
2020-04-21 14:38                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-22  1:35                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-22  3:26                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-22 13:22                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-22 17:46                                 ` chad
2020-04-22 22:52                                   ` Yuan Fu
2020-04-23  0:12                                     ` chad
2020-04-23  0:49                                       ` Yuan Fu
2020-04-22 17:55                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-19 13:35                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-19 19:14                     ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19 22:50                     ` Po Lu
2020-04-19  8:16               ` Po Lu

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