From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Brooks Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: character sets as they relate to =?utf-8?B?4oCcUmF34oCd?= string literals for elisp Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 15:19:22 -0700 Message-ID: <875yuctout.fsf@db48x.net> References: <4209edd83cfee7c84b2d75ebfcd38784fa21b23c.camel@crossproduct.net> <87v92ft9z6.fsf@db48x.net> <87o885tyle.fsf@db48x.net> <83k0it6lu5.fsf@gnu.org> <87k0isu7hz.fsf_-_@db48x.net> <87a6jotszy.fsf@db48x.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31624"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 05 00:20:25 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mXWJq-0007w7-98 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 00:20:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41228 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXWJo-0003UK-FU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:20:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39380) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXWIy-0002k7-6d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:19:28 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp-out-4.mxes.net ([198.205.123.69]:49404) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXWIw-0006CX-Ah for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:19:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Customer-MUA (mua.mxes.net [10.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HNZrX06VFz3cCn; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 18:19:23 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mxes.net; s=mta; t=1633385964; bh=R/LrhiP501C6bL7cgVmWuTt6AvZISTsiz5pUeIUwc5U=; h=From:To:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=IdxuMqjLfnQaJUvcWBZN2YnEyL0IYJDVCISl6w2vd/kmkrYM8c3SBDjAp765JELWN jZQf9opUDhvUa+Plj7fz3N8uVRKX5w1Qki6o5odsfqO5z3APg66yrPPl713Hut+sdH gl+x3yXJx0UDemj5jlBwq9eRXGFPmU0doKRjdxwM= Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGOfPtRkwAAABJQ TFRFpKfbdou67PD6JjJgAwUWXGSeIcyLHgAAAkZJREFUOI1VU8Fy6yAMxLi+Q13fCZ3cnQL3dqTc 7RD+/1feStDXVnXHDuvVSivZTMba2GPdw3gyCGcMAFxTyrTd9dwGoxHiZX9PmRFUHYAQlGGtXY+F Uk0SJOxgJiUEnH1qkitT9D+pQub7qGAmUbR6bu3CvI96Yv6QqkBBMrsyfZccr1/RDXGDTLf4P7ZY glVxe2V+/ACXWO1gvDO9/gDRpFFVmPluvLcmBjd5H6d8DEte+Pbk4rcY/Fa5tLKLOtCZsuQKYhpa LOkYDT7hESya7/WIET3lfQBqX0pwFtbI832Is0ayMUR9B+12xjgPCQ089cfwkCkX6L5TPmRelJTh zMS0Sz1PyjLAMCUWjcmgQLWQMds+e3aaauZDf9dU9A2/8kPVF2odCUoMKHkfjJR+mbgC+DRiycw5 3XSqGe6HmhN/AWjHypkAXOAFW5EiuA1ge2GiZuMb0s1fSEXcATeLUfbyEY2L8yPOmdSsdghQXx3K pz2eoeXuYvMCINVFDrCdNfVUp4eJ6cSEbjbgFjBEvonGGTrgv9cHjAc8aVgSAPoxaONbzfwhDIhR at7IIS7fAGiDSwIA9alhhTBzfA7YM2FY6eMwayrIGK8FDFmshmUA43WqhFtpvoqG9HHaJ7fqtgTz 8EWVkgZgtsylFliHDgk0MB7KAEC45C/rgnGvanNLXyzOeTzcT2nw/N44gfrtYXRQLoz9Q3TgmJRx 2Mx/Q51qzpm+l3m8z2SWBqC5+PZXAtNYlGFf/gKfHfjFkDT4x7od7R+w3Ls+ZdQBuQAAAABJRU5E rkJggg== In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Mon, 4 Oct 2021 21:19:19 +0000") X-Sent-To: Received-SPF: none client-ip=198.205.123.69; envelope-from=db48x@db48x.net; helo=smtp-out-4.mxes.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:276278 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: >> PS: it occurs to me to wonder if my use of Unicode in the prose of this >> message, outside of the examples, detracted from its readability in any >> way? > > It does for me. Aha! I=E2=80=99m rather astounded that this is the case, but happy to know = that we are talking about a use=E2=80=93case that actually affects real users, as opposed to merely hypothetical ones. Thank you! >> I am asking if anyone reading my messages, either this one or any of the >> last dozen I have sent to the list, have noticed any specific >> problems. I have used non=E2=80=93ascii characters in all of them. I=E2= =80=99m wondering >> if anyone even noticed. If nobody noticed, or if they didn=E2=80=99t det= ract >> from readability, then it is unlikely that Unicode is a problem in >> general. > > These characters displayed as inverse question marks on my Linux console. > > I can understand people wanting their non-ascii names to be properly > spelt (just as I prefer my non-ascii home city N=C3=BCrnberg to be correc= tly > spelt). > > What I don't really understand is including punctuation characters which > can't be typed on the writer's keyboard, except by awkward workarounds. You are making unwarranted assumptions about my keyboard :D But alas, it=E2=80=99s fairly ordinary; I don=E2=80=99t actually have the k= eyboard of my dreams. Instead, there are some xkb options that I turn on to make it more capable. To type a =EF=BD=A2"=EF=BD=A3 I have to press S-', while to t= ype =EF=BD=A2=E2=80=9C=EF=BD=A3 I press Level3-k; it=E2=80=99s a different pair of fingers, but not really any more difficult or awkward to type. > One of the reasons I use Linux is because I have a 16 x 8 dot fontset, > and don't have to cope with all the vagaries of fancy, sometimes blurred, > fonts used on GUIs. There are quite a few others. Why use a graphical > environment for doing text work? I use a GUI precisely because the range of characters is so much wider, making the text work more fun. Also, because the fonts aren=E2=80=99t blurr= y to me, ever since I adjusted the font hinting slightly and bumped up the minimum font sizes significantly (I agree that blurriness is somewhat subjective). >> (But I can imagine a hypothetical future kernel module which statically >> links against them in order to provide a full=E2=80=93featured terminal = in the >> console.) > > I can't. The Linux console has got to work to bring up a new machine, > should one be doing this from scratch rather than installing a > distribution with ready made X. For this, it's _got_ to work directly in > the kernel. Yea, that=E2=80=99s why I said that it would need to be statically linked. = The console already uses the framebuffer, it just needs support for reading TTF fonts (libfreetype) and shaping the text properly (libharfbuzz). I=E2= =80=99m sure some other handwavium would be needed too, but in principle there=E2= =80=99s no reason the Linux console shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to completely support Unicode text display. It=E2=80=99s just that nobody has done the work. Of course I hadn=E2=80=99t been thinking of input handling, but xkb does al= ready exist. While it is a problem that the name starts with an =E2=80=98x=E2=80= =99, the core logic of translating keycodes into characters via a keymap is all there. Presumably with sufficient elbow grease the X protocol stuff could be filed off and the important bits reused. I can hear the laughter already, as we propose adding a 2 or 3 megabyte kernel module. It would be hilarious. Can you imagine it now? db48x