bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Ihor Radchenko]

Hello,

From my experience, many new Emacs users have difficulties adding
things to their init file. Especially on Windows.

I have seen people being stuck when asked to "add some Elisp snippet to
config". They do not fully understand how to open that "config".

In some instances, users just created init.el in some random directory,
modified it, and then got confused why the config is not affecting
anything.

I think that it would be nice to provide an easily accessible command
that opens init.el or creates a new one, if not exists yet.

The command should obviously be available via M-x and maybe also via
menu and toolbar.

WDYT?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> The command should obviously be available via M-x and maybe also via
> menu

The global menu bar is already overflowing, so let's not add any more
items to the Edit, Options, Buffers or Tools menus.

The Emacs manual holds a description of the location of user
initialization files.  We can't help people who don't read, and
something tells me the individuals you mention are not the type to
carefully browse through our convoluted menus to find the item you
propose anyway.

> and toolbar.

No!

Adding that item to the tool bar would increase its (limited) size and
defeat its purpose of holding frequently used editing operations,
relegating its role to that of a dumping ground for miscellany.

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: 64871@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 09:09:24 +0800
> From:  Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
> 
> > The command should obviously be available via M-x and maybe also via
> > menu
> 
> The global menu bar is already overflowing, so let's not add any more
> items to the Edit, Options, Buffers or Tools menus.

Before concluding that this suggestion will cause trouble to the
over-crowded menu bar, we should talk about where this new items might
be placed.  If we place it in an existing sub-menu, then the problems
it will cause might not be that grave.  For example, how about the
Options->Customize Emacs sub-menu?

> The Emacs manual holds a description of the location of user
> initialization files.

In a 55-line subsection, plus another 54-line section in the
Appendices that describes the Windows-specific quirks!

> > and toolbar.
> 
> No!
> 
> Adding that item to the tool bar would increase its (limited) size and
> defeat its purpose of holding frequently used editing operations,
> relegating its role to that of a dumping ground for miscellany.

To be fair, the tool bar still has some free space on it.  But I
actually wonder about something else: what other applications have a
tool-bar button to access the init file, or even just the
customization menu?

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Before concluding that this suggestion will cause trouble to the
> over-crowded menu bar, we should talk about where this new items might
> be placed.  If we place it in an existing sub-menu, then the problems
> it will cause might not be that grave.  For example, how about the
> Options->Customize Emacs sub-menu?

I don't think that the people who need help finding their initialization
files are likely to look there.

Maybe the tutorial could mention the locations where Emacs searches for
initialization files, or we could put a link to the init files on the
splash screen.

> To be fair, the tool bar still has some free space on it.

Not on my phone, where the default tool-bar is about four items away
from wrapping.  We certainly can't afford to waste that space on these
items.

> But I actually wonder about something else: what other applications
> have a tool-bar button to access the init file, or even just the
> customization menu?

Other applications don't treat their tool bars as disposal areas for
anything they want to make prominent :-)

On a slightly unrelated note, I think Emacs would be well served by an
interactive tutorial, like the proverbial Clippy from MS Office.  It
could be opened from a link on the splash screen.

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: yantar92@posteo.net,  64871@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 13:44:39 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Before concluding that this suggestion will cause trouble to the
> > over-crowded menu bar, we should talk about where this new items might
> > be placed.  If we place it in an existing sub-menu, then the problems
> > it will cause might not be that grave.  For example, how about the
> > Options->Customize Emacs sub-menu?
> 
> I don't think that the people who need help finding their initialization
> files are likely to look there.

Are people who want to customize Emacs likely to use the
Options->Customize Emacs menu?  If yes, why not have this one
additional item there?  If no, why do we have that menu at all?

> Maybe the tutorial could mention the locations where Emacs searches for
> initialization files, or we could put a link to the init files on the
> splash screen.

The tutorial is not the place to explain _where_ Emacs finds the init
file.

> > To be fair, the tool bar still has some free space on it.
> 
> Not on my phone, where the default tool-bar is about four items away
> from wrapping.  We certainly can't afford to waste that space on these
> items.

So we are now using a smartphone as the reference platform for making
UI decisions?  Smartphones might need a whole new approach to the
Emacs UI, and a bunch of very different UI decisions.  They should not
dictate what our UI looks like on desktop and laptop machines.

> > But I actually wonder about something else: what other applications
> > have a tool-bar button to access the init file, or even just the
> > customization menu?
> 
> Other applications don't treat their tool bars as disposal areas for
> anything they want to make prominent :-)

When did you last look at modern word processors and their tool bars?
They are, in fact, much more crowded than ours.

> On a slightly unrelated note, I think Emacs would be well served by an
> interactive tutorial, like the proverbial Clippy from MS Office.  It
> could be opened from a link on the splash screen.

We decided it would be a good idea long ago, and are since waiting for
Someone™ to actually make that happen.  IMNSHO, this is more important
than having Emacs run on Android (hint, hint).

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Ihor Radchenko]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Before concluding that this suggestion will cause trouble to the
> over-crowded menu bar, we should talk about where this new items might
> be placed.  If we place it in an existing sub-menu, then the problems
> it will cause might not be that grave.  For example, how about the
> Options->Customize Emacs sub-menu?

My instincts from other GUI apps tell me that common places where
customization staff is located is Options->Preferences,
Edit->Preferences, or Tools->Preferences.

Options->Customize sounds like something new users would be able to
find.

>> The Emacs manual holds a description of the location of user
>> initialization files.
>
> In a 55-line subsection, plus another 54-line section in the
> Appendices that describes the Windows-specific quirks!

I myself had difficulties finding what is "~" on Windows.

> To be fair, the tool bar still has some free space on it.  But I
> actually wonder about something else: what other applications have a
> tool-bar button to access the init file, or even just the
> customization menu?

"Preferences" gear icon is something I have seen on toolbars.
And for init file, it is not a common concept.

Another idea could be adding a button that will open init file right
into customize interface (near "Apply").

Side note: I now tried to look into Emacs "preferences" via menu and it
feels a bit awkward. Options->Customize Emacs-> has "Top-level
customization group" and "Browse customization groups" do not sound very
different and I would never guess (even knowing Emacs) that "browse"
implies short overview of all options.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
> Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:32:27 +0000
> 
> My instincts from other GUI apps tell me that common places where
> customization staff is located is Options->Preferences,
> Edit->Preferences, or Tools->Preferences.
> 
> Options->Customize sounds like something new users would be able to
> find.

"Preferences" would be a silly name in Emacs, because every
customization in Emacs is about "preferences".

> > To be fair, the tool bar still has some free space on it.  But I
> > actually wonder about something else: what other applications have a
> > tool-bar button to access the init file, or even just the
> > customization menu?
> 
> "Preferences" gear icon is something I have seen on toolbars.

That's a separate issue and a separate request, though.

> And for init file, it is not a common concept.

Exactly my point.  The easy-on-newbies interface for customization is
not to present them with (a largely empty) init file, far from that.

> Another idea could be adding a button that will open init file right
> into customize interface (near "Apply").

Why?

> Side note: I now tried to look into Emacs "preferences" via menu and it
> feels a bit awkward. Options->Customize Emacs-> has "Top-level
> customization group" and "Browse customization groups" do not sound very
> different and I would never guess (even knowing Emacs) that "browse"
> implies short overview of all options.

Did you read the help-echo strings they display?

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Ihor Radchenko]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Options->Customize sounds like something new users would be able to
>> find.
>
> "Preferences" would be a silly name in Emacs, because every
> customization in Emacs is about "preferences".

Sure. I did not try to suggest this word. Just tried to explain how I
would search customization when exposed to an unknown GUI program.

I agreed with your suggestion that Options->Customize is the right sub-menu.

>> "Preferences" gear icon is something I have seen on toolbars.
>
> That's a separate issue and a separate request, though.

I meant that having something about customization is not uncommon on
toolbars in other apps and thus can be one of the places new users are
trying to reach.

>> And for init file, it is not a common concept.
>
> Exactly my point.  The easy-on-newbies interface for customization is
> not to present them with (a largely empty) init file, far from that.

Good point.
If init file does not exist yet, it can be created with top comment
explaining its purpose. Similar to initial *scratch* message.

>> Another idea could be adding a button that will open init file right
>> into customize interface (near "Apply").
>
> Why?

To make it easy to examine source code of the "saved" changes right
after using Customize buffer.

>> Side note: I now tried to look into Emacs "preferences" via menu and it
>> feels a bit awkward. Options->Customize Emacs-> has "Top-level
>> customization group" and "Browse customization groups" do not sound very
>> different and I would never guess (even knowing Emacs) that "browse"
>> implies short overview of all options.
>
> Did you read the help-echo strings they display?

Not helpful:
1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group
   called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me.
2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization
   groups" - what new information does it provide?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 09:08:24 +0000
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> Side note: I now tried to look into Emacs "preferences" via menu and it
> >> feels a bit awkward. Options->Customize Emacs-> has "Top-level
> >> customization group" and "Browse customization groups" do not sound very
> >> different and I would never guess (even knowing Emacs) that "browse"
> >> implies short overview of all options.
> >
> > Did you read the help-echo strings they display?
> 
> Not helpful:
> 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group
>    called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me.
> 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization
>    groups" - what new information does it provide?

Feel free to suggest better help strings.  (I really don't understand
how are those "not helpful", but that's me.)

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Are people who want to customize Emacs likely to use the
> Options->Customize Emacs menu?  If yes, why not have this one
> additional item there?  If no, why do we have that menu at all?

Users who need to customize Emacs don't necessarily need help to find
their initialization files.

> So we are now using a smartphone as the reference platform for making
> UI decisions?  Smartphones might need a whole new approach to the
> Emacs UI, and a bunch of very different UI decisions.  They should not
> dictate what our UI looks like on desktop and laptop machines.

Actually, the amount of horizontal display area available on smartphones
tends to reflect that of low-resolution desktop displays and computer
terminals.  Emacs UI currently works well on either.

> When did you last look at modern word processors and their tool bars?
> They are, in fact, much more crowded than ours.

Nevertheless, each of those items is used frequently enough to justify
their placement there.  ``Open the configuration file'' is not, at least
in Emacs.

> We decided it would be a good idea long ago, and are since waiting for
> Someone™ to actually make that happen.  IMNSHO, this is more important
> than having Emacs run on Android (hint, hint).

Well, I need the latter, but not the former.  So I'm currently more
inclined to make the latter happen, sorry :)

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: yantar92@posteo.net,  64871@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 20:29:48 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Are people who want to customize Emacs likely to use the
> > Options->Customize Emacs menu?  If yes, why not have this one
> > additional item there?  If no, why do we have that menu at all?
> 
> Users who need to customize Emacs don't necessarily need help to find
> their initialization files.

Not necessarily, but possibly?

Not every menu item we have is "necessarily" used.  They are there
because they could be useful enough, that's all.

> > So we are now using a smartphone as the reference platform for making
> > UI decisions?  Smartphones might need a whole new approach to the
> > Emacs UI, and a bunch of very different UI decisions.  They should not
> > dictate what our UI looks like on desktop and laptop machines.
> 
> Actually, the amount of horizontal display area available on smartphones
> tends to reflect that of low-resolution desktop displays and computer
> terminals.  Emacs UI currently works well on either.

"Low-resolution" meaning what? 640x480?

It isn't an accident that HTML has special meta-elements devised for
mobile devices.  If browsers need that, I'm quite sure Emacs will
sooner or later need something similar as well.

> > When did you last look at modern word processors and their tool bars?
> > They are, in fact, much more crowded than ours.
> 
> Nevertheless, each of those items is used frequently enough to justify
> their placement there.

Not IME, no.  Many tool-bar buttons go entirely unused.

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Ihor Radchenko]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Not helpful:
>> 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group
>>    called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me.
>> 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization
>>    groups" - what new information does it provide?
>
> Feel free to suggest better help strings.  (I really don't understand
> how are those "not helpful", but that's me.)

What about

1. "Explore all Emacs customizations"
2. "Abbreviated overview of all Emacs customizations"

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:09:51 +0000
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> Not helpful:
> >> 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group
> >>    called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me.
> >> 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization
> >>    groups" - what new information does it provide?
> >
> > Feel free to suggest better help strings.  (I really don't understand
> > how are those "not helpful", but that's me.)
> 
> What about
> 
> 1. "Explore all Emacs customizations"
> 2. "Abbreviated overview of all Emacs customizations"

That's inaccurate.

How about:

  "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions."
  "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options."

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Ihor Radchenko]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> >> Not helpful:
>> >> 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group
>> >>    called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me.
>> >> 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization
>> >>    groups" - what new information does it provide?
> ...
> How about:
>
>   "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions."
>   "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options."

I agree that it is much more accurate.
Then, may it be acceptable to change the menu names to:
1. "Customize Emacs"
2. "Tree view of all customizations"

These are a bit more familiar (IMHO) and we still retain more accurate
popup text.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 12:24:18 +0000
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > How about:
> >
> >   "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions."
> >   "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options."
> 
> I agree that it is much more accurate.
> Then, may it be acceptable to change the menu names to:
> 1. "Customize Emacs"
> 2. "Tree view of all customizations"
> 
> These are a bit more familiar (IMHO) and we still retain more accurate
> popup text.

I think the current menu items convey additional information, so
repeating the help-echo text will be less useful.  And in any case,
I'm very reluctant changing names of existing menu items, unless
there's real trouble with some name.  We arrived at these names after
long discussions, so they have some weight.

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Ihor Radchenko]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> These are a bit more familiar (IMHO) and we still retain more accurate
>> popup text.
>
> I think the current menu items convey additional information, so
> repeating the help-echo text will be less useful.  And in any case,
> I'm very reluctant changing names of existing menu items, unless
> there's real trouble with some name.  We arrived at these names after
> long discussions, so they have some weight.

Got it.
Updating the help-echo will also be an improvement in my book.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Drew Adams]

> >   "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions."
> >   "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options."
> 
> I agree that it is much more accurate.
> Then, may it be acceptable to change the menu names to:
> 1. "Customize Emacs"
> 2. "Tree view of all customizations"
> 
> These are a bit more familiar (IMHO) and we still retain more accurate
> popup text.

FWIW:

1. "customizations" includes anything a
user does to customize Emacs, which goes way
beyond what Customize does.

2. A user "option" is a variable you can set
using Customize.  Customize lets you configure
both options and faces.  The word "option"
doesn't cover both (in Emacs).  AFAIK, Emacs
hasn't chose a term for both - words such as
"setting" and "preference" have been suggested
in the past, but nothing was adopted, IIRC.

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 12:24:18 +0000
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> >> Not helpful:
> >> >> 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group
> >> >>    called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me.
> >> >> 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization
> >> >>    groups" - what new information does it provide?
> > ...
> > How about:
> >
> >   "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions."
> >   "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options."
> 
> I agree that it is much more accurate.

I've now made those changes on master, and I'm closing this bug.

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Ihor Radchenko]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> > How about:
>> >
>> >   "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions."
>> >   "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options."
>> 
>> I agree that it is much more accurate.
>
> I've now made those changes on master, and I'm closing this bug.

This was just a side discussion.
My original proposal was about user init file command/menu/toolbar.
Should I consider my main proposal rejected?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871-done@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 08:36:45 +0000
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I've now made those changes on master, and I'm closing this bug.
> 
> This was just a side discussion.
> My original proposal was about user init file command/menu/toolbar.
> Should I consider my main proposal rejected?

I don't think we've found a good place for this in the menus.  If you
have a good practical proposal, feel free to reopen the bug report and
post a patch for discussion.

Thanks.