From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Reconsider defaults for use-package-vc-prefer-newest Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 21:05:57 +0000 Message-ID: <875xqqm3wq.fsf@posteo.net> References: <87wmj7dftf.fsf@posteo.net> <875xqqly63.fsf@hyperspace> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31933"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "Tony Zorman" , "emacs-devel" To: =?utf-8?Q?Martin_Edstr=C3=B6m?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 20 23:07:10 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1srkqM-00089p-Bx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 20 Sep 2024 23:07:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1srkpU-0005VQ-IS; Fri, 20 Sep 2024 17:06:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1srkpN-0005Uw-Be for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Sep 2024 17:06:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1srkpH-0000hl-DD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Sep 2024 17:06:09 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04E29240103 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2024 23:05:58 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1726866359; bh=MqeQNgrsKYxIHmXEM0U1Akj8yklP0wJNcX/hD9uplvA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From; b=Pzrt1KCnZzzyiFyVpzu2es2p9n36/FD8KjACz9U26D4p1lEmWOXieHuT7671tQTmn gLUCM7VXiXz7/EQLn4qhaT3pSoroUBjwb1gVgc802u1GmCwv64v52JlPwVvle7/Wnq 39ZaYNQ9C40odTDz5cJ9RFIRjFkbmpeaEyEmNK5Gjzh9fYlcaryL1UQf7pdHkIHU8q kVBVuNpWvUliDMgxQmaccCUu64QsJiQZCthK9l6KN1KdKaOSPHmFJuLzjwZl4OADHI YzH19sFztgLDrRYRSBdFR8rYK4fkQoWtgJNszL8R4wlsLW6cFaiVIa8qEtrduEkXsF tWRA4aF33y/KQ== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4X9Q0Q2TB0z6txh; Fri, 20 Sep 2024 23:05:58 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: ("Martin =?utf-8?Q?Edstr?= =?utf-8?Q?=C3=B6m=22's?= message of "Fri, 20 Sep 2024 21:37:54 +0200 (CEST)") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=philipk@posteo.net; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-email/philipk@posteo.net"; preference=signencrypt Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323869 Archived-At: "Martin Edstr=C3=B6m" writes: > On Fri, 20 Sep 2024 06:57:40 +0200, Tony Zorman = wrote: >> > The thing is that with use-package, having a more deterministic >> > installation is of interest, especially since use-package is used to >> > automatically set up an Emacs environment. >>=20 >> I feel like the only way to actually guarantee a deterministic >> installation procedure is to use outside means (that is, to ping >> packages to specific versions/commits, either manually or with nix >> et.al). This can certainly be done with package-vc.el as well, but >> that's not what happens when one just uses :last-release. >>=20 >> Tony > > Yea, I've recently thought that when you have an ecosystem that grew > ad-hoc and has not very rigid curating, the solution isn't necessarily > to start trying to pressure everyone into a reliable release cadence > and break innocents' initfiles on the way. This isn't corporate, we're > all lisping for free, and have to lisp smart, not hard. A Pareto > solution would seem to be lockfiles. That is, an autogenerated file > specifying pinned versions or commits. As mentioned before, both ELPA repositories requires releases to be tagged, and it is not a problem. > Say there's a file "~/.emacs.d/versions.toml" containing lines such as > > vertico =3D "1.9.0.33" > consult =3D "1.8.0.2" > ess =3D "24.0.20" > elpaca =3D "0.0.2.0.34" > > and every time you upgrade, you can have the option of trying to > upgrade everything at once, rolling back after you find it breaks, > only upgrade some of them etc. (Rolling back is a pretty important > part) Modulo the part of having separate files in a non-sexp format, this is a good idea, that I don't think anyone would object to in principle. > This would be deterministic and everything. Actually it sort of > already happens with use-package, nevermind whether it fetches the > latest snapshot or a "release version", because it's not as if it will > auto-update every time you start Emacs, only when you manually tell it > to update. The missing piece is for the user to know how to check > their `elpa/` subdirectory into a git repo that they can rollback, but > that's asking a lot for most users. > > You might have noticed in the mockup above that I appended a ".0.X" > number to all the versions. That's because commit pinning is ugly and > unsemantic. Here X is just the number of commits since the last > "release version", no matter how long ago that was. So Vertico > 1.9.0.33 is the snapshot that's 33 commits after Vertico 1.9. It's > totally possible to do something like that (got the idea from > https://github.com/melpa/package-build/pull/81). > > If a developer has no Package-Version and no git tag, it could just be fo= rever at 0.0.X. > --=20 Philip Kaludercic on siskin