From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim X Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: line-move-visual Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 14:48:59 +1000 Organization: Unlimited download news at news.astraweb.com Message-ID: <874oh6nrr8.fsf@rapttech.com.au> References: <878w6vq7ew.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <871vcmhq79.fsf@wivenhoe.ul.ie> <580d5f23-e251-483f-9752-7e77b1ca2fb7@40g2000pry.googlegroups.com> <2a7dc148-e2cc-4681-9d8c-ccd1140aa6d7@j36g2000prj.googlegroups.com> <089883ee-0a63-4cb4-a0ec-d2fe4e71cc03@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <87wruco5yq.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87wrubfd8p.fsf@rapttech.com.au> <848w6ndwn0.fsf@cs.bham.ac.uk> <87y6ekevet.fsf@rapttech.com.au> <87bpbgq32f.fsf@unm.edu> <87hbl857xp.fsf@kzsu.stanford.edu> <87pqzvd7yx.fsf@rapttech.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1291842164 32634 80.91.229.12 (8 Dec 2010 21:02:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 21:02:44 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 08 22:02:40 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQR9r-0002VB-Ao for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 22:02:39 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40820 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQQyP-0006rk-R0 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:50:49 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!postnews.google.com!news1.google.com!npeer03.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!216.196.98.150.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:d6Vn6p2t2qCxSGLiqSiIn9wN2TU= Original-Lines: 50 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: d7bd5778.news.astraweb.com Original-X-Trace: DXC=XknO7fLm6J7J0Z]=gbPP29L?0kYOcDh@:i=VFiPm?<[52Xj\6^V?Vh9b3>MO4FYV[=IV1mT_bA?D8 Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:178920 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:76006 Archived-At: Uday S Reddy writes: > On 6/13/2010 2:41 AM, Tim X wrote: > > I am dying to figure out what application Mark Crispin is > putting Emacs to that makes it so hard for him to accommodate the > line-move-visual change. > > It seems, from a post I've just seen from Mark, that it isn't an application at all. What he has are some recipes/processes that staff follow using emacs. He has previously stated that asking them to set line=move-visual to nil was not acceptable as his users would be confused and that he has no access to the emacs software they are running. Therefore, it would be reasonable to assume that if they cannot add a simple line to set a variable and he does not have access to the machines, that the users are not installing any specialised packages or code and there is no elisp involved at all. His issue appears to be with how to update his processes/recipes in a clear manner so that they will still work regardless. This is a legitimate issue. I now think he has overstated the impact. Setting line movement to its old default is easily done via the options menu and doesn't require the user editing .emacs or even using M-x customize. It wouldn't be too difficult to add this to his recipes. (I do wonder how he deals with users who select other options, such as CUA mode, that are also likely to impact on his recipes). His point about setting visual line mode as the default being a poor decision is valid. Likewise, his concern that this is a sign of possible problems for his setup if more changes that affect basic commands occur in future versions is legitimate, though possibly over stated when based on a single contentious change (noting also that its not like a new major version of emacs comes out every other week. 4 major versions released in over 15 years!). However, discussion of such change is certainly beneficial, even if it only makes developers aware of the need to be conservative when proposing changes to interfaces or especially defaults. Unfortunately, over stating of the issue, derogatory assertions about the developers, baseless assumptions about their ages, motivation and expertise have tended to obscure the valid points he has raised. Instead of coming across well, much of it has come across as nothing more than a dummy spit. Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au