Need help with emacs clipboard.

Need help with emacs clipboard.

[cplum984]

I've switched from xemacs to emacs, and I'm trying to get undo/cut/copy/paste all working again. In my xemacs setup, I used the following:

(define-key global-map [(f1)] 'undo)
(define-key global-map [(f2)] 'x-kill-primary-selection)
(define-key global-map [(f3)] 'x-copy-primary-selection)
(define-key global-map [(f4)] 'x-yank-clipboard-selection)

I may have done other things also, but this lets me use f1, f2, f3, and f4 for these functions. Also, the clipboard is properly imported and exported with other X apps. I'm also using Chicken VNC on Mac OS X, and it also properly imports/exports the clipboard with MacOS X, although Chicken requires that you do an explicit manual import of the MacOS X clipboard each time it changes, but at least it's all working.

Now on to the clipboard and emacs. I've tried. I've googled a lot. I've experimented a lot. But I still have a lot of problems. I modified the above key mapping used in xemacs to the following in emacs:

(define-key global-map [(f1)] 'undo)
(define-key global-map [(f2)] 'delete-region)
(define-key global-map [(f3)] 'kill-ring-save)
(define-key global-map [(f4)] 'yank)

These work within emacs, but will not import or export the clipboard. I've also try using the following:

(global-set-key [\C-z] 'undo)
(global-set-key [\C-x] 'clipboard-kill-region)
(global-set-key [\C-c] 'clipboard-kill-ring-save)
(global-set-key [\C-v] 'clipboard-yank)

They seem to end up functioning the same as the f key equivalents. Still no import or export of the clipboards.

Also added the following to no avail:

(setq x-select-enable-clipboard t)

The only way I seem to be able to import the clipboard is if I first paste into an xemacs buffer, and then use the xemacs Copy menu item (not f4, which won't work), and then switch to emacs and use the emacs Paste menu item (not f4 or C-v, which won't work). f4 and C-v work after using the Paste menu item however. For exporting the clipboard from emacs, I'm forced to paste into a clipboard file that I save and open from xemacs so I can then copy the contents to the clipboard.

So this is getting very frustrating since I interact with emacs sessions using the clipboard a lot, and the above workaround just isn't going to cut it. There's got to be a better solution. I'm hoping someone here can help.

thanks.

Re: Need help with emacs clipboard.

[Bob Proulx]

cplum984@gmail.com wrote:
> I've switched from xemacs to emacs, and I'm trying to get
> undo/cut/copy/paste all working again.

I assume you are using emacs with a graphical interface?  Such as the
GTK or Lucid libraries?

> ...  Also, the clipboard is properly imported and exported with
> other X apps.  ...
> ... Still no import or export of the clipboards.

I see exactly the opposite behavior.  Emacs by default uses the
clipboard for cut-and-paste.  But on my system nothing else uses the
clipboard as Firefox and Chromium both use the X primary selection.
Therefore to make Emacs compatible with Firefox and Chromium I need to
configure emacs to use the primary selection (as it used to do) too.

In the Emacs NEWS (seen with C-h n) find this:

  * Editing Changes in Emacs 24.1
  ...
  ** Selection changes.

  The default handling of clipboard and primary selections has been
  changed to conform with modern X applications.  In short, most
  commands for killing and yanking text now use the clipboard, while
  mouse commands use the primary selection.

So I am surprised that you need to configure emacs to use the
clipboard since that is now the default.

Try running emacs with:

  emacs -Q
  emacs -q

Then check the behavior again.  That will avoid running any of your
personal configuration (-q) and the local system config (-Q) and if
those work then you know some personal configuration is affecting this.

> The only way I seem to be able to import the clipboard is if I first
> paste into an xemacs buffer, and then use the xemacs Copy menu item
> (not f4, which won't work), and then switch to emacs and use the
> emacs Paste menu item (not f4 or C-v, which won't work). f4 and C-v
> work after using the Paste menu item however. For exporting the
> clipboard from emacs, I'm forced to paste into a clipboard file that
> I save and open from xemacs so I can then copy the contents to the
> clipboard.

Are you familiar with the "xclip" command?  It is a useful utility for
working with cut and paste.  Works with either the primary selection
or the clipboard.

  xclip -selection clipboard -o  # paste from clipboard
  xclip -selection primary -o    # paste from primary selection

If nothing else it will allow you to verify what is where.

> So this is getting very frustrating since I interact with emacs
> sessions using the clipboard a lot, and the above workaround just
> isn't going to cut it. There's got to be a better solution. I'm
> hoping someone here can help.

This won't help you because you want the opposite but just to post my
example this is what I do to configure emacs to be usable on the X
desktop using the primary selection.

      (setq transient-mark-mode nil)
      (setq select-active-regions nil) 	; default is nil in 23, t in 24
      (setq mouse-drag-copy-region t)	; default is t in 23, nil in 24
      (setq x-select-enable-primary t)	; default is nil in 23, t in 24
      (setq x-select-enable-clipboard nil) ; default is nil in 23, t in 24
      (setq x-select-enable-clipboard-manager nil) ; new in 24, default is t

Bob

Re: Need help with emacs clipboard.

[Harry Putnam]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> This won't help you because you want the opposite but just to post my
> example this is what I do to configure emacs to be usable on the X
> desktop using the primary selection.
>
>       (setq transient-mark-mode nil)
>       (setq select-active-regions nil) 	; default is nil in 23, t in 24
>       (setq mouse-drag-copy-region t)	; default is t in 23, nil in 24
>       (setq x-select-enable-primary t)	; default is nil in 23, t in 24
>       (setq x-select-enable-clipboard nil) ; default is nil in 23, t in 24
>       (setq x-select-enable-clipboard-manager nil) ; new in 24, default is t

Bob, just slipped in here to see if I could get you to show how to put
all that into a single statement that does all those things with one
command.

I'm thinking to be able to turn it off and on quickly.

Sorry I'm so horribly lazy but staggering around with that has
resulted in a visit to the emergency room for paren-mania.  They only
had one real treatment that worked... lots of morphine.

Re: Need help with emacs clipboard.

[Bob Proulx]

Hi Harry,

Harry Putnam wrote:
> Bob Proulx writes:
> > This won't help you because you want the opposite but just to post my
> > example this is what I do to configure emacs to be usable on the X
> > desktop using the primary selection.
> >
> >       (setq transient-mark-mode nil)
> >       (setq select-active-regions nil) 	; default is nil in 23, t in 24
> >       (setq mouse-drag-copy-region t)	; default is t in 23, nil in 24
> >       (setq x-select-enable-primary t)	; default is nil in 23, t in 24
> >       (setq x-select-enable-clipboard nil) ; default is nil in 23, t in 24
> >       (setq x-select-enable-clipboard-manager nil) ; new in 24, default is t
> 
> Bob, just slipped in here to see if I could get you to show how to put
> all that into a single statement that does all those things with one
> command.

I am sorry but there isn't one.  If you want each of those items then
you need each of those items.

> I'm thinking to be able to turn it off and on quickly.

This isn't something you would turn on and off.  Why does it need to
be one single statement?  It isn't something one puts on a command
line command.  It is a part of a much larger configuration.  This
configuration normally goes into your emacs config, traditionally your
~/.emacs file although now available to configure other places too.
It doesn't make any sense to change this while the emacs is running.

I can't imagine a need for it but to turn this into an interactively
callable function it would be something like this:

(defun my-set-modes ()
  "Set my modes."
  (interactive)
  (setq transient-mark-mode nil)
  (setq select-active-regions nil)
  (setq mouse-drag-copy-region t)
  (setq x-select-enable-primary t)
  (setq x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
  (setq x-select-enable-clipboard-manager nil))

Then you could call it with M-x my-set-modes.  But I don't think it is
a useful thing as a function like that.  I will leave it to the reader
to create the opposite function to set the opposite values for those.
I am not recommending any of this but simply providing it because you
asked for it specifically.

> Sorry I'm so horribly lazy but staggering around with that has
> resulted in a visit to the emergency room for paren-mania.  They only
> had one real treatment that worked... lots of morphine.

I am not sure there is a cure for paren-mania.  However I think
morphine is the wrong cure.  Instead I suggest sunshine and a good
fiction novel in the park.  Computers are here to help us.  If working
at the computer isn't a help then time to get away and do something
completely different.

Emacs is programmed with lisp and lisp, along with many other
languages, uses one set of parens per function call.  Most languages
use one set of parens per function all.  Ruby and Python are eschewing
parens these days but I still like them.  They make it easy for me to
see and delineate functions calls.

Lisp is on the other side of the syntax from C languages.  Instead of
calling a function foo(param) like it does in C in lisp the function
is called (foo parm).  That first parentheses is what starts the
function call and not what starts the argument list.  A very tiny
difference.

But then there is the named variable too.  Basically in a C language
the first parameter is the first parameter and the second is the
second and so forth.  In Ruby and Python it is more typical to name
them so that we can order them differently.  Maybe instead of having
twenty parameters only give the ones that are different from the
default value.  Where do you think Ruby and Python got that paradigm
from?  They got it from lisp where it is typical to name parameters.

Therefore (setq x-select-enable-primary t) in a C language would be
set_x_select_enable_primary(t).  Something like that would work and
does in C all of the time.  But in lisp it is easier and simply to
have a generic setter function like setq (short for set the params
quoted literally) and then pass in both the name of the variable and
the value of the variable and have it set it.  And so we have things
like (setq x-select-enable-primary t).  It isn't really that much
different from saying X_SELECT_ENABLE_PRIMARY=true if it were written
in shell code for example.  Or was a windows .ini format file.  Or
many other possibilties.

No need for paren-noia.  Simply divide and conquer.  Break down the
characters into sets of things.  Understand each part individually.
It all makes sense and isn't so bad.  Really! :-)

Bob

Re: Need help with emacs clipboard.

[Harry Putnam]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> Hi Harry,
>
> Harry Putnam wrote:
>> Bob Proulx writes:
>> > This won't help you because you want the opposite but just to post my
>> > example this is what I do to configure emacs to be usable on the X
>> > desktop using the primary selection.
>> >
>> >       (setq transient-mark-mode nil)
>> >       (setq select-active-regions nil) 	; default is nil in 23, t in 24
>> >       (setq mouse-drag-copy-region t)	; default is t in 23, nil in 24
>> >       (setq x-select-enable-primary t)	; default is nil in 23, t in 24
>> >       (setq x-select-enable-clipboard nil) ; default is nil in 23, t in 24
>> >       (setq x-select-enable-clipboard-manager nil) ; new in 24, default is t
>> 
>> Bob, just slipped in here to see if I could get you to show how to put
>> all that into a single statement that does all those things with one
>> command.
>
> I am sorry but there isn't one.  If you want each of those items then
> you need each of those items.

I meant a way to string a bunch of setq's together... Something like
(mixing languages .. but maybe it is clear?)

if(ble){
 setq [...]
 setq [...]
 [...]
 setq [...]
} 


>> I'm thinking to be able to turn it off and on quickly.
>
> This isn't something you would turn on and off.  Why does it need to
> be one single statement?  It isn't something one puts on a command
> line command.  It is a part of a much larger configuration.  This
> configuration normally goes into your emacs config, traditionally your
> ~/.emacs file although now available to configure other places too.
> It doesn't make any sense to change this while the emacs is running.

[...]

Doesn't it enable primary select and disable clipboard.

So might one want to go back the opposite way on occasion.

I was thinking like having it in emacs init files one way and be able to
go the other with  Shift+Alt+: (eval) .. some code <RET>.


Thanks for the answer and hefty thoughts...

Re: Need help with emacs clipboard.

[Joost Kremers]

Harry Putnam wrote:
> I meant a way to string a bunch of setq's together... Something like
> (mixing languages .. but maybe it is clear?)

You mean like so:

,----
| (setq transient-mark-mode nil
|       select-active-regions nil         ; default is nil in 23, t in 24
|       mouse-drag-copy-region t          ; default is t in 23, nil in 24
|       x-select-enable-primary t         ; default is nil in 23, t in 24
|       x-select-enable-clipboard nil     ; default is nil in 23, t in 24
|       x-select-enable-clipboard-manager nil) ; new in 24, default is t
`----

?

Yeah, that's possible. :-)

-- 
Joost Kremers                                   joostkremers@fastmail.fm
Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht
EN:SiS(9)

Re: Need help with emacs clipboard.

[Robert Thorpe]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:
...
> I see exactly the opposite behavior.  Emacs by default uses the
> clipboard for cut-and-paste.  But on my system nothing else uses the
> clipboard as Firefox and Chromium both use the X primary selection.

I think you're misunderstanding how things have changed.  The idea of
introducing the clipboard into X was to make things more like Windows.
The old x-selection behaviour is still supported though.

This is how things work on my system (Xubuntu).  If I mark something
with the mouse in Firefox, Thunderbird or Libreoffice then it enters the
x-selection.  If I then press the middle mouse button in Emacs it's
pasted into the Emacs buffer.  That's the old x-selection behaviour in
action.

If I mark something *and then "copy" or "cut" it*, then it enters the
clipboard.  So, if I mark something and then press Ctrl-C in Libreoffice
it enters the clipboard.  Then I can press C-y in Emacs and it will yank.
So, when you do the Ctrl-C in the other app the x-selection and the
clipboard contain the same information.

If I mark something different then the x-selection changes but the
clipboard doesn't.  This is actually useful because it means you can
carry two independent bits of text from another app into Emacs without
having to visit the app twice.

Apparently Chromium's behaviour is buggy though, see:
https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=68886

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: Need help with emacs clipboard.

[Bob Proulx]

Robert Thorpe wrote:
> Bob Proulx writes:
> > I see exactly the opposite behavior.  Emacs by default uses the
> > clipboard for cut-and-paste.  But on my system nothing else uses the
> > clipboard as Firefox and Chromium both use the X primary selection.
> 
> I think you're misunderstanding how things have changed.  The idea of
> introducing the clipboard into X was to make things more like Windows.
> The old x-selection behaviour is still supported though.

I think you are misunderstanding my response. :-)  But I agree with
you that the idea of the clipboard is more like MS-Windows.

I think the issue lies in the definitions of cut-n-paste.  There are
at least three ways to perform those actions and the result expected
depends at least somewhat upon which way they are performed.

1. Click and hold mouse-1, drag, release.  Text is highlighted and
placed into the primary selection.  Click mouse-2.  Primary selection
is pasted as input.  Generally everywhere but in Emacs v24 this was
changed to use the clipboard by default instead of the primary selection.

2. Use an application that is configured for the Microsoft interface
such as pretty much any graphical browser these days.  Highlight text
using mouse-1 click, drag, and release.  Use C-c (or C-x) to copy (or
cut) the text into the clipboard.  Paste using C-v.

3. Emacs graphical interface specifically interacts with the primary
selection and clipboard to place text killed with kill-region C-w and
kill-ring-save M-w into the primary selection in v23 and earlier or
into the clipboard in v24 and later.  This is configurable using the
previously mentioned emacs configuration variables.

If you are a Microsoft type of person then you probably ignore #1 and
always use method #2 in which case you want emacs to interact with the
clipboard and therefore want the new v24 and later behavior.  If you
are an X Window System type of person then you want to ignore #2 and
use #1 in which case you want Emacs v23 and earlier behavior not v24
and later.

> This is how things work on my system (Xubuntu).  If I mark something
> with the mouse in Firefox, Thunderbird or Libreoffice then it enters the
> x-selection.  If I then press the middle mouse button in Emacs it's
> pasted into the Emacs buffer.  That's the old x-selection behaviour in
> action.

Yes.  Agreed.  Same here.  Which is what I had said before.  This
would be the interface that I define and describe as #1 above.  This
is the way The X Window System works.  Chromium, Firefox, Libreoffice,
others all behavior this way under The X Window System.

However I think something has changed again in Emacs v24.  Because
with an earlier version middle mouse-2 paste would paste from the
clipboard by default (emacs -Q) which was much of my complaint but now
it is back to pasting from the primary selection.  Something was
fixed.  Yay!

> If I mark something *and then "copy" or "cut" it*, then it enters the
> clipboard.

I assume that when you say the "*and then ..." part you are talking
about using the Microsoft CUA keys C-w, C-x, C-v.  That is what I
define and describe as #2 above.  That is the way Microsoft works.
And by extension many X applications also support this because of the
many Microsoft refugees that arrive from there.

Note that in your words "If I mark something" that at that time it has
already been placed into the primary selection using the X Window
System behavior.  You can immediately paste that with the mouse middle
button.  When you then use C-c or C-x then that places it into the
clipboard using the Microsoft behavior.

> So, if I mark something and then press Ctrl-C in Libreoffice
> it enters the clipboard.  Then I can press C-y in Emacs and it will yank.

Note that C-y in Emacs will reference the emacs configuration to paste
either from one or the other depending upon the variable settings.  In
Emacs v23 and earlier a graphical emacs interface would paste from the
primary selection.  In v24 and later it pastes from the clipboard by
default.

> So, when you do the Ctrl-C in the other app the x-selection and the
> clipboard contain the same information.

Yes.  Agreed.

> If I mark something different then the x-selection changes but the
> clipboard doesn't.  This is actually useful because it means you can
> carry two independent bits of text from another app into Emacs without
> having to visit the app twice.

Yes.  And let me applaud you for knowing this at that level of detail
and making use of it.  Very good!  I place that knowledge right there
with knowing about the kill-ring and being able to rotate through it.
Very useful knowledge.  And mixed in there is also the secondary
selection too.  See (apropos "mouse-.*-secondary") for a list.

> Apparently Chromium's behaviour is buggy though, see:
> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=68886

I don't see those issues every day but I have tripped over them on
occasion.  Ashame that after several years and many releases those
issues are not fixed yet.

Bob

Re: Need help with emacs clipboard.

[Robert Thorpe]

<Clipping huge description of clipping>

I agree with your description of these facilities, and I now see why you
setup things the way you do.  Except one thing....

You write:
> 1. Click and hold mouse-1, drag, release.  Text is highlighted and
> placed into the primary selection.  Click mouse-2.  Primary selection
> is pasted as input.  Generally everywhere but in Emacs v24 this was
> changed to use the clipboard by default instead of the primary selection.

Then later on:
> Note that in your words "If I mark something" that at that time it has
> already been placed into the primary selection using the X Window
> System behavior.  You can immediately paste that with the mouse middle
> button.

The behaviour you describe in the latter paragraph still works for me in
Libreoffice and Firefox.  So, I don't see why you say in the former
paragraph "Generally everywhere but in Emacs v24 this was changed to use
the clipboard by default instead of the primary selection."

I don't see that it has been changed much.  Like you say yourself, when
you press C-c or C-x it's placed on the clipboard.  The only thing I've
noticed change is that C-v in those programs pastes the clipboard not
the primary selection.

Perhaps Firefox and Libreoffice are setup different by distro makers.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: Need help with emacs clipboard.

[Bob Proulx]

Robert Thorpe wrote:
> I agree with your description of these facilities, and I now see why you
> setup things the way you do.  Except one thing....
> 
> You write:
> > 1. Click and hold mouse-1, drag, release.  Text is highlighted and
> > placed into the primary selection.  Click mouse-2.  Primary selection
> > is pasted as input.  Generally everywhere but in Emacs v24 this was
> > changed to use the clipboard by default instead of the primary selection.

Same for you too, right?

> Then later on:
> > Note that in your words "If I mark something" that at that time it has
> > already been placed into the primary selection using the X Window
> > System behavior.  You can immediately paste that with the mouse middle
> > button.
> 
> The behaviour you describe in the latter paragraph still works for me in
> Libreoffice and Firefox.  So, I don't see why you say in the former
> paragraph "Generally everywhere but in Emacs v24 this was changed to use
> the clipboard by default instead of the primary selection."

Does that mean when you mouse-2 paste in Libreoffice and Firefox that
it uses the clipboard there instead of the primary selection?  For me
it definitely uses the primary selection.  I verified that to be true
before writing my last message.

> I don't see that it has been changed much.  Like you say yourself, when
> you press C-c or C-x it's placed on the clipboard.  The only thing I've
> noticed change is that C-v in those programs pastes the clipboard not
> the primary selection.

Same for me too.  If I use C-v it would paste from the clipboard.  But
C-v is not the mouse-2 middle button.  It is the mouse middle button
mouse-2 paste that I was talking about that uses the primary
selection.  (Although my notes show that Emacs did for at least a
while paste from the clipboard with mouse middle.  That was a problem.
It doesn't do that today.  Thankfully.  I will stop complaining that
it did.)

But for me if I have highlighted text with the mouse using the left
button it is trivially easy to middle click to paste it.  Your hand
stays on the mouse and thought stays with the mouse hand.

It also seems silly to highlight and then also do C-c when the text is
already available for pasting without doing C-c.  Plus in a terminal
window C-c would send an interrupt so most definitely not what anyone
wants.  How do the Microsoft folks do that in a terminal?.  So using
C-c and C-v is anti-ergo for me.  With C-c already being used to send
a SIGINT to interrupt shell processes it just doesn't make sense to
me.

I do acknowledge that *replacing* highlighted text is a valid
functional mode.  I can see people really liking it.  That is only
reason for having an explicit and separate key to cut or paste.  It
just isn't the way it works in X and therefore collides with it.

In X I paste the new text at the beginning and then C-k or C-d to
delete the old text.  That is the same effort in that case.  But I
definitely understand that people like the replaced highlighted text
feature.  It just isn't something I need or want because I didn't grow
up with it.

> Perhaps Firefox and Libreoffice are setup different by distro makers.

Definitely possible.  I am using Debian.  And I would definitely
expect it to be different on MS Windows and there are a lot of MS
Windows users.

Bob

Re: Need help with emacs clipboard.

[Robert Thorpe]

Bob, I see the same behaviour as you.

BR,
Robert Thorpe