From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1?= =?utf-8?Q?=2FKammer?=) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Contributors and maintainers Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:36:08 +0200 Message-ID: <874mhkffvr.fsf@T420.taylan> References: <87si59wj42.fsf@T420.taylan> <877fmjj9p6.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87zizfm2dq.fsf@T420.taylan> <871tcr7yvq.fsf@fastmail.com> <87mvvfm0bd.fsf@T420.taylan> <56250803.5080601@cs.ucla.edu> <87a8ren5ys.fsf@T420.taylan> <56259BB1.3070908@cs.ucla.edu> <878u6ykmvt.fsf@T420.taylan> <87h9llvo98.fsf@members.fsf.org> <5626622A.3090707@yandex.ru> <87zizdijbp.fsf@T420.taylan> <56267302.7050606@yandex.ru> <87io61igyu.fsf@T420.taylan> <56267CDF.6010201@yandex.ru> <87wpuhh15s.fsf@T420.taylan> <562683B9.1060305@yandex.ru> <83y4exe71v.fsf@gnu.org> <87zizcfzna.fsf@T420.taylan> <83r3koe2nj.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445438211 6871 80.91.229.3 (21 Oct 2015 14:36:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:36:51 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 21 16:36:50 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZouVR-0007pi-CJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:36:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51928 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZouVQ-0003GN-DS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:36:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59902) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZouUx-0003Dz-4k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:36:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZouUs-0000ZI-QV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:36:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x232.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]:36815) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZouUs-0000ZB-GM; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:36:10 -0400 Original-Received: by wicfx6 with SMTP id fx6so94413962wic.1; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:36:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zp4EpsVu71ihJn9voppRLNjieqozycsOGcCI3tSzIRY=; b=ArjfnMqEUEtrkXUJuYS58byQGI9y4yCPeEp5sPCJ9gI5Ej6FPuq/8pZ3A3hBG8NjKm /9ZzPxC3AWh8sySLHbtc29QIEwyrMJcMA3O3cOfUySy/s37iU3jDmYhRTRVaj9fZEq/i 4uutLhVlzp9tkYbkSzu4hFE9zGZvlFLryxqWoiS0ETNHC7BNh74LojDCZ1eEmDoxNdiH TcCdMZzP8nXBhq69Kj7dJO7SXjTctDEIBc4f+QZWOTmJVCeiO/EqCm32ldTxMCvhn5+2 M3vBusJAPs8tGXF33r230gBaNWKB28IEc42Ymh85IbD6ahDQdO9SQix4HyatyLxOZ0YU 1n+g== X-Received: by 10.180.34.38 with SMTP id w6mr32368081wii.78.1445438169914; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from T420.taylan ([2a02:908:c32:4740:221:ccff:fe66:68f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ki7sm10808927wjc.28.2015.10.21.07.36.08 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:36:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83r3koe2nj.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:07:12 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192284 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1/Kammer) >> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:29:13 +0200 >>=20 >> I provided clarification several times. It was ignored. > > No, it was not ignored. It was disagreed with, which is something > entirely different. > >> One person got it and also repeated it in their words: >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-10/msg01464.html > > After which I pushed a change that took care of the missing > information. > >> And me again on the bug discussion: >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2015-10/msg00676.html >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2015-10/msg00698.html >>=20 >> That makes at least 7 times in which I repeated the same thing, and it >> was ignored every time. > > No, it was not ignored. It was repeatedly read, considered, and > _disagreed_ with. > >> Some of those mails contain very detailed, careful explanations of the >> issue, which I spent a lot of time on. At least 2 or 3 are of that >> nature. > > And it took me a similarly considerable amount of time to re-read the > same explanations over and over again, and then provide a polite > response. All that because you completely refused to accept a simple > comment that required you to make a change in a single line of code, > so that your package will use a standard Emacs API. > >> I hope this makes it clear why I'm outraged. When I say something like >> "I repeated myself a dozen times and was ignored every time," the >> "dozen" in that sentence is, by now, actually literal. That's absurd. > > You were NOT ignored. > >> What I gather from being persistently ignored is that I'm receiving >> absolutely *no* respect *at all* from most people here. That is the one >> and only reason I would start losing respect towards others. The >> detailed and polite explanations of my problem listed above hopefully >> give a hint on which way the lack of respect primarily goes. > > There's no disrespect, there never was. Respecting an opinion does > not mean it must be accepted. Rejecting an opinion or a patch doesn't > mean disrespect, it just means disagreement, in this case on purely > technical grounds. > >> The lack of respect I'm receiving is *not* of the kind where someone is >> being actively nasty, insulting, etc. It's a kind where a person's very >> voice is being denied, not even countered. That's pretty grave. > > We should be allowed to disagree and reject patches even if there are > no insults or obnoxious behavior on the part of the person who offers > an opinion or a patch. Patches and opinions can be rejected on purely > technical grounds, not only on the grounds of nasty conduct. > > IOW, we are not obliged to automatically accept patches just because > their submitter is well behaved. We actually try to ignore his/her > behavior as best as we can, and consider the patches only on technical > merits. (Trying to respond to all of the above as briefly as I can.) Can you please show a previous quote by you which serves to show that you understood the reason I did not want to use shell-quote-argument, and where you directly addressed that exact reason (either with a change to shell-quote-argument, *or* an explanation of why you disagree with that exact reason)? When you show such a quote, then maybe we can look at it and see how it could be that you feel my concern has been addressed, yet I don't. >> I doubt most people who come to contribute code have much motivation to >> work out basic social issues. My feedback is probably the best you will >> get, and I'm not saying it's good at all. > > You are wrong. People do provide useful feedback here about these > issues. Just yesterday we had such feedback from =C3=83=C2=93scar Fuente= s. Point. That was pretty good feedback. >> Most others will just leave the place immediately, or not even try >> because they already saw in the archive or heard from others enough >> horrible things about emacs-devel. > > From whom did you hear horrible things about emacs-devel? What > horrible things? It would be bad to name them, but emacs-devel has become a running joke among some groups which contain experienced programmers and long-timers of GNU and Emacs, as well as young folks who could be future Emacs developers. I would love it if this could change, and if both those experienced people and potential future developers could partake in emacs-devel. Taylan