From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tomas Hlavaty Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Do shorthands break basic tooling (tags, grep, etc)? (was Re: Shorthands have landed on master) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:58:00 +0200 Message-ID: <874ka2j68n.fsf@logand.com> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <874ka5gsqa.fsf@gnus.org> <25d8d72022b571db5291@heytings.org> <87h7e2xsl5.fsf@gmail.com> <25d8d72022e1ea7ed022@heytings.org> <87h7e2jjzy.fsf@logand.com> <87bl4ajg0c.fsf@logand.com> <877deyjc5e.fsf@logand.com> <87tui2yruj.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3315"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 30 19:59:23 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mW0L5-0000ed-Ll for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:59:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54462 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mW0L4-0003ZW-ED for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:59:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46232) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mW0Jp-0002k4-SG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:58:06 -0400 Original-Received: from logand.com ([37.48.87.44]:50080) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mW0Jn-00007G-VW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:58:05 -0400 Original-Received: by logand.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E95AA19EB31; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:58:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Mailer: emacs 27.2 (via feedmail 11-beta-1 I) In-Reply-To: <87tui2yruj.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=37.48.87.44; envelope-from=tom@logand.com; helo=logand.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:275921 Archived-At: On Thu 30 Sep 2021 at 17:02, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora w= rote: > Tomas Hlavaty writes: > >> On Thu 30 Sep 2021 at 15:57, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: >>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 3:27 PM Tomas Hlavaty wrote: >>> >>>> That does not work. Common Lisp reader is programable. If you do not >>>> compile and load everything needed sucessfully, the reader will fail f= or >>>> anything non-trivial. >>> >>> Those non-trivial things are quite rare, >> >> Not really. >> >>> and good reader etiquette makes the code that is CL:READ with a >>> non-full reader at least make a good deal of sense. >> >> What is "good reader etiquette"? > > See this section of CLTL2 > > https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node191.html > > See how some combinations are explicitly reserved for the user. Stick > to those. > >> What if some library does not have "good reader etiquette"? >> Do you give up search because of that? > > No, but it's like libraries using > > (intern (format nil "~a~a" "foo" "bar")) > > They're not making life easier for their users in that respect. It is different. The intern case simply does not appear in the search results. But if your CL:READ based search breaks, you can no longer search the codebase at all until you fix it. >> It is not a choice between one or the other. I need both. Please do >> not break grep and web search. > > I explained how they are already "broken". In CL (the topic of this > particular subthread), by packages and in every language that has any > type of indirection. I'm saying they were never really "good" to begin > with, not if you want to use the full available power in those > languages. Neither of the two options are perfect. As I said, I need both to work as well as possible.