From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jason Earl Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Basic Bazaar guide for Emacs hackers. Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 12:56:26 -0700 Message-ID: <873a3u8o45.fsf@notengoamigos.org> References: <87skbzblp5.fsf@telefonica.net> <87y6log42q.fsf@red-bean.com> <87y6lo8zgi.fsf@telefonica.net> <87638sy5ab.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tywc8u7t.fsf@telefonica.net> <87k4x76wpp.fsf@telefonica.net> <8e0e71cb0911302252v6a7c9f80j532308eb0a842816@mail.gmail.com> <4B14D4FC.8070509@gnu.org> <8e0e71cb0912010726k56f90cbbm8d96b5e0dd3a6b6f@mail.gmail.com> <837ht6ms94.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1259697478 1362 80.91.229.12 (1 Dec 2009 19:57:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 19:57:58 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Karl Fogel , ofv@wanadoo.es, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 01 20:57:51 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1NFYr8-0005PB-1s for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Dec 2009 20:57:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38438 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NFYr7-0007Ia-Oh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:57:49 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NFYq6-0006qz-Dq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:56:46 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NFYq1-0006oR-6J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:56:45 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=39345 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NFYq1-0006oK-0j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:56:41 -0500 Original-Received: from mailout07.yourhostingaccount.com ([65.254.253.58]:42020) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NFYpy-0001A3-PK; Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:56:38 -0500 Original-Received: from mailscan15.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.1.15.15] helo=mailscan15.yourhostingaccount.com) by mailout07.yourhostingaccount.com with esmtp (Exim) id 1NFYpu-0004YE-KX; Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:56:34 -0500 Original-Received: from impout03.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.1.55.3] helo=impout03.yourhostingaccount.com) by mailscan15.yourhostingaccount.com with esmtp (Exim) id 1NFYpt-0007fJ-Rb; Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:56:33 -0500 Original-Received: from authsmtp11.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.1.18.11]) by impout03.yourhostingaccount.com with NO UCE id BvwZ1d0040EKrUA0000000; Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:56:33 -0500 X-EN-OrigOutIP: 10.1.18.11 X-EN-IMPSID: BvwZ1d0040EKrUA0000000 Original-Received: from [67.214.244.122] (helo=jearl-netbook) by authsmtp11.yourhostingaccount.com with esmtpa (Exim) id 1NFYpt-0005s7-Co; Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:56:33 -0500 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwCAAAAAByaaZbAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAAAFz UkdCAK7OHOkAAAAgY0hSTQAAeiYAAICEAAD6AAAAgOgAAHUwAADqYAAAOpgAABdwnLpRPAAAAAlw SFlzAAASmwAAEpsB4JJZDAAAAAl2cEFnAAAAMAAAADAAzu6MVwAAAaFJREFUSMe1VtuxxSAIzIz9 2Iyl2Aj1bBX0k5+LrwjGjJyPy2ROwtGNBJbVCwwwy1UNoOL3f+SBxkj15Lr4NsboN24DWMZxYQNA TjGmjC1gswJiqBbpDeANYMwXBFyAFB5L7ADMBcoSDgAFBSDHR2tA8ABMSB4AawB76pAnILsKx2lm 1VfpgUi3kxrySylRHdmQj40Jva2/jl8EY3Twv/phhsC9nIQR0hnAOUptYsL3RxvAk+YIH2AWsvTH GYBgKn8GaPYm5jNANaCQ8WfAzyH9x0crFfGl9X4QVdg8gEqN2KjBHi6V/iBq6iyAxTqd+Yvupwai VwM9LZkxQ6otihmS6H+mHlK5URwi0UQgWxHoxS5JagBSed7IzJRCallS2pg2QsamcGUFNSHgLZUv augJIUualv1Bv6+yVat1oeMq92s/mBBWQJH7dQX7CnpvWWs/4CazpHlB2RR1BFSzNGdIaTbbLil8 U76BKKU0GztapXP3C78bNYQ6MTQybY8OkIaITf9HPzyHkXE4YXs4mf5VDz+jAepj3RTQ3Ubv0SPy 9AcCrfKh0TBgvgAAACV0RVh0Y3JlYXRlLWRhdGUAMjAwOS0wOC0yN1QxNjoxMTozMy0wNjowMFPN ssMAAAAldEVYdG1vZGlmeS1kYXRlADIwMDktMDgtMjdUMTY6MTE6MzMtMDY6MDAMfMT3AAAAAElF TkSuQmCC In-Reply-To: <837ht6ms94.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 01 Dec 2009 21:03:19 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux) X-EN-UserInfo: f8a5a3c49e1c4664ba81facb1022c4a9:67ddfe7aeaee6d1ea5b788d961d42633 X-EN-AuthUser: jearl@notengoamigos.org X-EN-OrigIP: 67.214.244.122 X-EN-OrigHost: unknown X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:118055 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:26:02 -0500 >> From: Karl Fogel >> Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D3scar_Fuentes?= , rms@gnu.org, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> > While the distributed workflow might be a better approach for >> > people starting with a clean slate, existing developers (and users >> > who track CVS) do not necessarily have the time to invest in >> > learning a new workflow immediately, and are looking for minimum >> > disruption immediately after the switch from CVS to bzr. So there >> > is definite value in an additional document describing a quick and >> > painless transition from CVS, and probably a migration path to the >> > distributed workflow for when the developer has time to adjust >> > their habits. >> >> Absolutely. We already have the additional document, and it is >> prominently linked to, so no problems there. > > So, as long as we all think that the "Quick Start" page will be useful > to some, here are a comment about it: > > The setup and workflow described by this page is advertised (by its > parent "Bzr For Emacs Devs") as ``CVS-like''. But this isn't really > accurate, is it? The command shown to checkout the trunk is this: > > bzr checkout URL_TO_UPSTREAM_TRUNK trunk > > However, IIUC, the slightly modified checkout command > > bzr checkout --lightweight URL_TO_UPSTREAM_TRUNK trunk I *really* don't think that you want to advertise lightweight checkouts that point to non-local URLs. > is a closer equivalent of the CVS checkout, because it only checks out > the working tree without creating a full local copy of history. The > history is only needed if one wants to commit locally. People who > don't plan on using local commits don't need to pay the extra price of > larger disk storage and probably also some additional time it takes to > do a heavyweight checkout. The history is also needed if you want to do any sort of bzr command, like bzr log or bzr annotate. Heck, even bzr status requires access to the parent branch. Even if you don't want to commit locally (and with a checkout you probably *don't* want to commit locally), it is still worthwhile to have the branch history on a local disk. Using a lightweight checkout might be a net win for people who are simply interested in following Emacs development if the lightweight checkout required less time to checkout or if it required you to download less information, but that's simply not the case with the plain jane http transport (I do not know if the smart server is an improvement either, not that it matters as it appears that Savannah is not going to provide one). bzr checkouts *work* like cvs checkouts, you don't even need a fancy bzr repository. The primary difference is that they still work when disconnected from the network. Well, that and with bzr you can rename files, and commits are atomic, and bzr is actively maintained, etc. > OTOH, if we think that a heavyweight checkout is the recommended way, > then we should at least mention its main benefit -- the local commit. > Currently, the page only hints on that, but stops short of showing the > commands to use this potential: > > You have in your disk a copy of the VC history of the trunk branch > since the last bzr update. Hence, Bazaar does not need to contact a > server upstream for displaying logs, reverting edited files, > annotating, etc. This is useful for working off-line. > > Bazaar makes possible to commit changes off-line to your local > history and send them upstream in one batch. > > Personally, I would do both: tell about --lightweight as the > equivalent of CVS, and also tell about the local commits available > with the heavyweight checkouts. But that's me. At some point we need to point people at the existing Bazaar documentation. I personally don't have a problem with CVS-style usage of Bazaar. In fact, one of the reasons that I like bzr is that it allows for this type of usage in situations where it makes sense. However, a lightweight checkout of a non-local branch is a real loser performance wise, and it throws away many of the advantages that bzr has over CVS. The entire history of the mainline of Emacs can be compressed into just under 200M. The entire history of all of the branches of Emacs is about 10% more than that. I just don't think that lightweight checkouts is something that we want to advertise. Jason