From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bidi,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Handling invisible text in bidirectional display Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:17:35 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <873a24zdsw.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <83y6jyat25.fsf@gnu.org> <87eilpzwrs.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <83vdf1bxbg.fsf@gnu.org> <833a248r8i.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1263759501 24412 80.91.229.12 (17 Jan 2010 20:18:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:18:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: emacs-bidi@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-bidi-bounces+gnu-emacs-bidi=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 17 21:18:13 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: gnu-emacs-bidi@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1NWbZd-0007Ta-A5 for gnu-emacs-bidi@m.gmane.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:18:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40645 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NWbZe-0004UD-5c for gnu-emacs-bidi@m.gmane.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:18:14 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NWbZb-0004Sc-9r for emacs-bidi@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:18:11 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NWbZW-0004Q8-HV for emacs-bidi@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:18:10 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=35978 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NWbZW-0004Q2-BJ for emacs-bidi@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:18:06 -0500 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48999) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NWbZV-0000ZR-Ac for emacs-bidi@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:18:05 -0500 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1NWbZP-0007Nf-9B for emacs-bidi@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:17:59 +0100 Original-Received: from p5b2c2d40.dip.t-dialin.net ([91.44.45.64]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:17:59 +0100 Original-Received: from dak by p5b2c2d40.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:17:59 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 40 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p5b2c2d40.dip.t-dialin.net X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:wDfhbowEdKfIu2dlLXLrocAES7Q= X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-bidi@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of Emacs support for multi-directional text." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-bidi-bounces+gnu-emacs-bidi=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-bidi-bounces+gnu-emacs-bidi=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bidi:448 gmane.emacs.devel:120174 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Here's an example. Suppose the buffer contains this text: > > ABCD(4+5)*3 > > (As usual, capital letters are strong right-to-left characters.) This > text will be displayed as > > 3*(5+4)DCBA > > By contrast, the same text with `+' removed will display as > > 3*(45)DCBA > > As you see, 4 and 5 switched their visual order. This means that if > we first remove the invisible characters and then reorder, the 4 and 5 > will appear in a different order when `+' is invisible than when it is > visible. With my suggestion, we _first_ reorder and _then_ hide > invisible characters, so the display with `+' invisible will be > > 3*(54)DCBA > > which I think is less surprising. I disagree, because there is no reason for 5 and 4 to switch their order anymore. There also is a difference between invisibility and display properties here: if there is a display property on a letter "x", it is hard to see why several consecutive images should be reordered to be L->R. Of course, one should argue that in the presence of L->R, people should take care to use the right "shadowed" character to match the intended left/rightness of the image. But I think that is not really sane. If we want display property material to have an explicit direction, it should be set with properties, not by some magic derivation from the underlying invisible text. -- David Kastrup