From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:38:41 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <8739zy68n2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201003130001.o2D01FFQ003489@godzilla.ics.uci.edu> <87vdd1yqe4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87eijjzrkd.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org> <20100317143519.GB4381@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268854911 7289 80.91.229.12 (17 Mar 2010 19:41:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:41:51 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 17 20:41:47 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nrz7J-0001pC-Le for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:41:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57775 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nrz7J-0007Ht-78 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:41:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Nrz7C-0007Bv-99 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:41:14 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47314 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nrz7A-00077p-Or for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:41:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nrz78-0002No-SW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:41:12 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:42123) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nrz78-0002Nh-Ij for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:41:10 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nrz6D-0000VL-Ut for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:40:13 +0100 Original-Received: from p5b2c22cc.dip.t-dialin.net ([91.44.34.204]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:40:13 +0100 Original-Received: from dak by p5b2c22cc.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:40:13 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 42 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p5b2c22cc.dip.t-dialin.net X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:jNtubyuyu0IPHZ48Co5dfe9CHmo= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122104 Archived-At: Lennart Borgman writes: > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> >>> I agree with Richard that the primary concern is doing what is useful >>> for newcomers. >> >> You have misconstrued Richard's post.  He went on to say that what is >> useful for newcomers isn't necessarily what they expect or "want". >> There's thus no indication there that he would support the rest of your >> argument. > > Juri can of course be correct too when he interpret this basic part of > RMS message. You can also be that. However I see no reason why Juri > can't argue that way. > >> The answer is to ask them why they want this. > > Have not that been done many, many times - in the context of Emacs and > in research on user-computer interaction. As far as I understand the > answer is that new users most often want it to behave as they are used > to from other applications. They want that exactly because it saves > them time Once. > and avoids confusion (which also costs them time). > > I for one agree with that argument. It is valid, but an O(1) type of argument. It will not outweigh O(n) arguments even with a small factor eventually. If something costs time repeatedly, saving startup time is not worth the trouble when we are catering about being efficient on a continuing base. I already gave a recipe for making mouse-centric people happy with a mouse-centric subset of delete-selection-mode. Nobody even bothered to read it, apparently. -- David Kastrup